Are labor supply and freedom related?

[Kontiki]

Originally posted by Kidicious


Simple. There is no ruling class receiving payment for someone elses work, but simply for owning things.

What about the government? Aren't they facilitating work? Who is building the factories? How are they getting the money to pay the salaries and buy the equipment? Taxes? If you pay taxes, are you not giving away the fruits of your labor?

I'm genuinely curious about this.

[Flubber]

Originally posted by Kidicious


Of course I object to profit, rent and interest.

NO suprise really-- I just wondered how far it extended

Originally posted by Kidicious


They make you rich and they make other people poor.

1. Why do you personalize this to place me among the rich?

2. Making one person rich does not necessarily make others poor. There are many many investments that actually generate wealth . Put simply it is not a zero sum game where every dollar a capitalist gets is one less that a worker receives

Originally posted by Kidicious

Imagine a poor person who works for wages, pays rent, and because they are poor has gone in debt so they have to pay interest.

Well-- I work for wages and pay interest (up to two years ago I paid rent) so I don't have to "imagine" doing those things

Originally posted by Kidicious


Now imagine that they don't pay rent, their wages are higher, and they pay off their debt? Now imagine that they get wealthy, so they recieve rent, and interest, maybe even profit. It makes all the difference in the world.

Well actually that is the PLAN. My wages go up and my debt goes down . I have already stopped paying rent and instead pay a mortgage. I do at the same time receive profit on my retirement investments.

Originally posted by Kidicious

But you are mentally conditioned to place all the resonsibility on individuals for their condition. That's just ridiculous. You just ignore reality.

Are you trying to say that individual's are helpless to change their condiition? I reject that wholeheartedly. Most smart people that work hard get ahead PERIOD. That's reality

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Arrian
How do you come up with capital to create new endeavors? Who controls that process? And how do you avoid a new "ruling class?"

-Arrian

You don't come up with new capital, becuase it's not capitalism. There's no need for capital anymore, and so there's no capitalist ruling class.

[Arrian]

Originally posted by Kidicious

You're not answering my question. Why is a good not more expensive, because the producer borrowed money to produce the good instead of using his own capital?

I'm not sure I understand your question.

Are you trying to say that if I borrow money to start a business instead of using money I already have, that the product I sell will be the same price?

Most likely, since unless we're talking about some sort of monopolistic environment, the price is determined by the market. If I try to charge too much for it, people won't buy it.

Thus, I (the guy who borrowed the money) will have lower profits until I can pay off the loan.

-Arrian

[Arrian]

Originally posted by Kidicious


You don't come up with new capital, becuase it's not capitalism. There's no need for capital anymore, and so there's no capitalist ruling class.

No need for capital, eh?

Bull****. It won't be CALLED capital, but if the people want to build a new factory to produce... say... spaceships to go colonize Mars, somebody is going to have to allocate capital (be it money, or man-hours, etc) to the project.

-Arrian

[Velociryx]

Ohhhhh! So new factories just magically materialize from the State Replicator then! I see now!

Or perhaps you mean that using the rent usage fees collected by the government, they can now fund (capitalize) new investment?

Kid, Kid, Kid....:: shakes head in amusement::

-=Vel=-

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Flubber
2. Making one person rich does not necessarily make others poor. There are many many investments that actually generate wealth . Put simply it is not a zero sum game where every dollar a capitalist gets is one less that a worker receives

But it's the work that generates the wealth, not the wealth. No it's not a zero sum game, but that don't make it fair.

Well actually that is the PLAN. My wages go up and my debt goes down . I have already stopped paying rent and instead pay a mortgage. I do at the same time receive profit on my retirement investments.

Good for you. And I mean that.

Are you trying to say that individual's are helpless to change their condiition? I reject that wholeheartedly. Most smart people that work hard get ahead PERIOD. That's reality

No I'm not saying that. That would be stupid. Are you saying that rent isn't a barrier to them helping themselves?

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Kontiki


What about the government? Aren't they facilitating work? Who is building the factories? How are they getting the money to pay the salaries and buy the equipment? Taxes? If you pay taxes, are you not giving away the fruits of your labor?

I'm genuinely curious about this.

Taxes do take away from your labor. Hopefully you get something of equal value for it. Factories to work in etc.....

[Velociryx]

No...rent is a cost of doing business if you're bootstrapping (ie, just starting out).

Of course, the alternative is to kill the evil pigdog owners (entirely moral, I'm sure you'll agree), and live in their house free! WhoooHoooo!

Ahhhh the blissful life of the Commies....

-=Vel=-

[Velociryx]

Hmnmmm


So when people pay their taxes to Kidatopia's Central Government, they're.....

Not getting the full value of their labor!



Which means that you have replaced one system of exploitation with another?

And this is better because......?

[Flubber]

Back to the tractor example-- obviously the tractor creates value

If I hire a ditchdigger, the going rate 20 kulats/hour but I am willing to pay 100 kulats/hour for a tractor. The tractor owner decides to give the tractor driver 40 kulats/hr.

The driver agrees since he doubles his pay and his work is easier.

The owner uses 20 kulats/hr for fuel and oil, assigns 20 to the repair and track replacement fund ( new tracks cost 20, 000 kulats and needs to be done every 1000 hours, applies 15 kulats to depreciation and takes 5 kulats of "profit".

Everyone wins

But instead kid would have the guy be unexploited and use a shovel for half the pay OR enter into something like the above arrangement with the government where suddenly it is not offensive

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Arrian
Thus, I (the guy who borrowed the money) will have lower profits until I can pay off the loan.

Exactly, but your work produces the same amount of goods. The borrowed money doesn't produce anything, because it's NOT WORK!

[Kontiki]

Originally posted by Kidicious


Taxes do take away from your labor. Hopefully you get something of equal value for it. Factories to work in etc.....

But how is that different from paying a fee to use Vel's tractor? You pay him a fee, you become more productive. You get something of at least equal value out of that transaction. In fact, you likely get something of greater value because if the usage fee you had to pay for the tractor was greater than the increase in your productivity, then it wouldn't make any sense to use the tractor. You'd be better off doing the work manually, so you wouldn't use his tractor. Or maybe you could find someone who would rent you one cheaper.

[Arrian]

Originally posted by Kidicious

Exactly, but your work produces the same amount of goods. The borrowed money doesn't produce anything, because it's NOT WORK!

Oh, I see the point you're trying to make.

One problem with it:

Without the loan, I can't start the business at all.

-Arrian

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Arrian


No need for capital, eh?

Bull****. It won't be CALLED capital, but if the people want to build a new factory to produce... say... spaceships to go colonize Mars, somebody is going to have to allocate capital (be it money, or man-hours, etc) to the project.

-Arrian

It will not be necessary to save money as in a capitalist system. Man-hours will have to be coordinated to produce the 'tangible' capital, and extract the necessary resources.

Anyway. I can't afford to spend this much time in this discussion today. I have too much to do. Maybe I'll be back latter today.