The Guardian: Nato is a threat to Europe and must be disbanded

[Pekka]

Kuci, **** how can you be neutral when you are being attacked? You tell me.

notyoueither, nah, it's not a big problem. The problem is that people tend to think our soldiers were part of nazis and stuff like that. Which wasn't the case.

I ask you, you are hanging from a cliff, and a nazi comes to you and reaches his hand 'grab this and live'. What do you do? Mix it up, at this point you don't know that Nazis are responsible for genocides and all that. You know they have been a little imperialistic though. What do you do? Do you grab the hand or not?

And until you learn the nature of the 'alliance', I'd advice you to read about it, or watch couple of documentaries. Hey, anyone will do, I won't even suggest any propaganda. Anyone will do. Before that, I'd like to remember you that Nazis were pretty strong in the US before WWII, so, chances aer you are a nazi. Unless you start actually learning history rather than throwing racist tantrums, I also refuse to reverse my position when it comes to this thread.

[Kuciwalker]

Kuci, **** how can you be neutral when you are being attacked? You tell me.

You're the one claiming there wasn't a Nazi alliance.

[Pekka]

I find it naive, that some people have the guts to say anything about accepting Germany's help. I'd like to remind people, that we were attacked after all. We really had a bad shortage of equipment. Worse than most countries. So, Hitler offers weapons to us. To deny these weapons because 'they come from the people who just invaded few countries, and they MIGHT have an agenda...' Oh yeah, let's be real about it OK?

I'd rather we fight with Nazi weapons and with Hitler himself against SU invasion than be overrun by invader. I'd fight with the devil, don't matter. Unless the strings attached are too much. Which in our case wasn't.

[Pekka]

Kuci, No, I was explaining it wasn't traditional alliance, thus the word 'co-belligrent' is often used.

[Dinner]

Originally posted by Sandman
NATO serves no useful purpose, and should be abolished. As quietly as possible, of course.

Europe should continue to maintain a powerful defensive military. There's no point in getting soft.

What? People have given a half dozen reasons as to why NATO should continue to exist but you dismiss them without ever even responding to a single one.

[Ted Striker]

This was also apparent last week when Triple H left Evolution and now Rick Flair has the whole cast of RAW after him.

[Pekka]

So, Germany for us was the uncle that paid your through college but molested you.

[Kuciwalker]

[notyoueither]

Originally posted by Pekka
Kuci, **** how can you be neutral when you are being attacked? You tell me.

notyoueither, nah, it's not a big problem. The problem is that people tend to think our soldiers were part of nazis and stuff like that. Which wasn't the case.

I ask you, you are hanging from a cliff, and a nazi comes to you and reaches his hand 'grab this and live'. What do you do? Mix it up, at this point you don't know that Nazis are responsible for genocides and all that. You know they have been a little imperialistic though. What do you do? Do you grab the hand or not?

And until you learn the nature of the 'alliance', I'd advice you to read about it, or watch couple of documentaries. Hey, anyone will do, I won't even suggest any propaganda. Anyone will do. Before that, I'd like to remember you that Nazis were pretty strong in the US before WWII, so, chances aer you are a nazi. Unless you start actually learning history rather than throwing racist tantrums, I also refuse to reverse my position when it comes to this thread.

I don't blame the Finns for the choice they made. In fact, the Soviet Union well and truely deserved any cuts the Finns could deliver. You were the only ones out of Poles, Latvians, Lithuaneans, Estonians... etc... to send the Red Army packing when they tried the land grab under the skirts of the Nazis.

TBH, most people I know who know **** about the situation admire the Finns and do not begrudge that you took up arms against the Reds when a good opportunity presented itself to take back what they had so recently taken from you by naked aggression.

However, you do need to acknowledge the nature of the angel that came to your rescue. Italians, Hungarians, and many others have done so already... most importantly Germans themsleves. There is no shame in the past for you, there is only shame in denying it.

[Pekka]

I haven't denied there were Germans in here. That's the only part that's a little dodgy. I have absolutely 0 problems fo having Hitler's weapons. It's not like the weaposn have a mind of their own.

[notyoueither]

So why deny that you grabbed onto the Wehrmacht's coattails to take back land that rightfully belonged to you?

German soldiers in Finland would lead one to conclude that you took their 'side', yes?

[Pekka]

No. SU started city bombings first. We were ready for sure. It was only temporary peace and no one had actually 'gone to business as usual' after winter war. We both knew it was only a matter of time. SU knew it, we knew it. We knew we couldnt' take another offensive. We had no gear. Hitler offered gear. We accept. We are ready for a new offensive now, which started I remind you.

But, now we were equipped properly, unlike the war before, and started pushing forward to the old borders. I mean, what are you going to do, stay put? Only direction is backwards from there. So we pushed forward until the old borderlines and created a small bufferzone. German weaponry helped. German troops in Lapland mostly were kind of inactive, almost all fighting happened in front where Germans didn't really have force.

Volunteer Swedes did more fighting than Germans in here. That's just a fact.

And when we reached the borders and buffered it up, the troops STOPPED and stayed there for 2 and a half years, building strongholds.

Of course, SU was more convinced we would be mad and ready to take it to them when German weapons started arriving and all that. So they were paranoid about it, of course it was pretty justified paranoia, as equpiment started flowing in. We were paranoid as well. And city bombings started again, so, at the end waht we suspected happened. Wehrmacht didn't lead the way in here. THey mostly were hanging in oru coat tails.

So no, it's not taking Germany's side. Rather they took our side. We couldn't actually afford playing big startegic games in the world field. It was very simple in here, SU attacked, and is our enemy, now protect yourself.

[notyoueither]

Oh, THOSE German soldiers. Well, never you mind them, they did nothing, NOTHING, I tell you.

Pekka, you allied yourself to the Germans, but you drew a line as to how far you would go. Why not acknowledge that?

[Pekka]

They did nothing that was against our will. What they did in our soil helped us. So why should we think we helped them, when they helped us? And that's the only reason WE call it alliance (we don't have a word for co-belligrent), but it's pretty much explained why it was so.

Why do you demand for me to acknowledge their contributions? I said that the appreciation for the weaponry was great. The contribution as far as men was poor. In pure numbers it was OK, but like said, most were in Lapland. In a way, that helped to stabilize the sitaution in there though, and maybe it prevented the cutting the country half from happening. But they saw little action. Why do you demand me to say something that is not true? They saw very little action. Individual volunteer groups saw more action. This is just a fact.

I can acknowledge alliance where we say what we do and how far we go, only if the other person is educated on the issue. If a person has the normal amount of knowledge, which is next to nothing, I refuse to do so for the sake of mixing things up. You say Italians etc admitted. Yeah, what could they deny, they had Mussolini .. but yeah it's known that Italians themselves weren't really much into fascism. But to compare our situation to theirs is not even the same. Our situation was unique, and our relations to Germany were unique, so unless a person knows some of the background and the war in general, and in our front also, then it's no use to oversimplify it like that.

[Saras]

Originally posted by notyoueither
You were the only ones out of Poles, Latvians, Lithuaneans, Estonians... etc... to send the Red Army packing when they tried the land grab under the skirts of the Nazis.

Finns are impossible to bribe, hence were the only country with a government not subverted by Soviets.

Finland