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The Guardian: Nato is a threat to Europe and must be disbanded

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  • The Guardian: Nato is a threat to Europe and must be disbanded

    Our security doesn't depend on the US; we should free up our thinking

    Jonathan Steele
    Monday November 8, 2004
    The Guardian

    They walk the walk. They talk the talk. But they don't think the think. In the wake of the huge support given to George Bush last week, it's time we realised how different America's majority culture is, and changed our policies accordingly.
    What Americans share with Europeans are not values, but institutions. The distinction is crucial. Like us, they have a separation of powers between executive and legislature, an independent judiciary, and the rule of law. But the American majority's social and moral values differ enormously from those which guide most Europeans.

    Its dangerous ignorance of the world, a mixture of intellectual isolationism and imperial intervention abroad, is equally alien. In the United States more people have guns than have passports. Is there one European nation of which the same is true?

    Of course, millions of US citizens do share "European" values. But to believe that this minority amounts to 48% and that America is deeply polarised is incorrect. It encourages the illusion that things may improve when Bush is gone. In fact, most Kerry voters are as conservative as the Bush majority on the issues which worry Europeans. Kerry never came out for US even-handedness on the Israel-Palestine conflict, or for a withdrawal from Iraq.

    Many commentators now argue for Europe to distance itself. But vague pleas for greater European coherence or for Tony Blair to end his close links with the White House are not enough. The call should not be for "more" independence. We need full independence.

    We must go all the way, up to the termination of Nato. An alliance which should have wound up when the Soviet Union collapsed now serves almost entirely as a device for giving the US an unfair and unreciprocated droit de regard over European foreign policy.

    As long as we are officially embedded as America's allies, the default option is that we have to support America and respect its "leadership". This makes it harder for European governments to break ranks, for fear of being attacked as disloyal. The default option should be that we, like they, have our interests. Sometimes they will coincide. Sometimes they will differ. But that is normal.

    In other parts of the world, a handful of countries have bilateral defence treaties with the US. Some in Europe might want the same if Nato didn't exist. In contrast, a few members of the European Union who chose to take the considerable risk of staying neutral during the cold war - such as Austria, Finland, Ireland and Sweden - see no need to join Nato in the much safer world we live in today.

    So it makes no sense that the largest and most powerful European states, those who are most able to defend themselves, should cling to outdated anxiety and the notion that their ultimate security depends on the US. Do we really need American nuclear weapons to protect us against terrorists or so-called rogue states? The last time Europe was in dire straits, as Nazi tanks swept across the continent in 1939 and 1940, the US stayed on the sidelines until Pearl Harbor.

    There is a school of thought which says that Nato is virtually defunct, so there is no need to worry about it. That view is sometimes heard even in Russia, where the so-called "realists" argue that Russia cannot oppose its old enemy, in spite of Washington's undisguised efforts to encircle it with bases in the Caucasus and central Asia. The more Moscow tries, they say, the more it seems to justify US claims that Russia is expansionist - however odd that sounds, coming from a far more expansionist Washington.

    It is true that Nato is unlikely ever again to function with the unanimity it showed during the cold war. The lesson from Iraq is that the alliance has become no more than a "coalition of the reluctant", with key members like France and Germany opting out of joint action.

    But it is wrong to be complacent about Nato's alleged impotence or irrelevance. Nato gives the US a significant instrument for moral and political pressure. Europe is automatically expected to tag along in going to war, or in the post-conflict phase, as in Afghanistan or Iraq. Who knows whether Iran and Syria will come next? Bush has four more years in power and there is little likelihood that his successors in the White House will be any less interventionist.

    Nato, in short, has become a threat to Europe. Its existence also acts as a continual drag on Europe's efforts to build its own security institutions. Certain member countries, particularly Britain, constantly look over their shoulders for fear of upsetting big brother. This has an inhibiting effect on every initiative.

    France's more robust stance is pilloried by the Atlanticists as nostalgia for unilateral grandeur instead of being seen as part of France's pro-European search for a security project that will help us all.

    Paradoxically, one argument for voting no in the referendum on the European constitution is based on this. Paul Quiles, a French socialist former defence minister, points out that Britain forced a change in the constitution's text so that Europe's common security policy, even as it tries to gather strength, is required to give primacy to Nato. Without control over its own defence, he argues, greater European integration makes little sense.

    The immediate priority on the road to European independence is to abandon support for Bush's disastrous Iraq policy and get behind the majority of Iraqis who want the US to stop attacking their cities and leave the country. They feel US forces only provoke more insecurity and death.

    Since Bush's victory two Nato members, Hungary and the Netherlands (which has a rightwing government), have said they will pull their troops out in March next year. Their moves show the falsity of the "old Europe, new Europe" split. In the post-communist countries, as much as in western Europe, majorities consistently opposed Bush's Iraq adventure, whatever their more timid governments said. Wanting to withdraw support for US foreign policy is not a left or right issue.

    Ending Nato would not mean that Europe rejects good relations with the US. Nor does it rule out police and intelligence collaboration on issues of concern, such as the way to protect our countries against terrorism. Europe could still join the US in war, if there was an international consensus and the electorates of individual countries supported it.

    But Europeans must reach their decisions from a position of genuine independence. The US has always based its approach to Europe on a calculation of interest rather than from sentimental motives. Europe should do no less. We can and, for the most part, should be America's friends. Allies, no longer.


  • #2
    This will work as well as Operation Clark County at changing opinions.
    I make no bones about my moral support for [terrorist] organizations. - chegitz guevara
    For those who aspire to live in a high cost, high tax, big government place, our nation and the world offers plenty of options. Vermont, Canada and Venezuela all offer you the opportunity to live in the socialist, big government paradise you long for. –Senator Rubio

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    • #3
      Crazy-talk
      CSPA

      Comment


      • #4
        You have to give the Guardian credit for persistance.

        Anyway why is NATO important now?

        Comment


        • #5
          In contrast, a few members of the European Union who chose to take the considerable risk of staying neutral during the cold war - such as Austria, Finland, Ireland and Sweden - see no need to join Nato in the much safer world we live in today.

          Which planet do they live on? Finland stayed out of NATO because they were afraid of the Soviet reaction to their joining. Sweden partly for the same reason, partly not to leave the Finns alone, and partly because our experience during the world wars suggested that neutrality could bring security. A conviction that NATO could not stand idle in the case of a Soviet attack on us did not hurt either. Austria as made neutral by the victor powers of WWII.

          Also, if it weren't for Bush's controversial behaviour, we'd probably still have a strong lobby for joining NATO here - they were at times quite loud during the '90s. Louder than at any time during the Cold War, I believe.
          Why can't you be a non-conformist just like everybody else?

          It's no good (from an evolutionary point of view) to have the physique of Tarzan if you have the sex drive of a philosopher. -- Michael Ruse
          The Nedaverse I can accept, but not the Berzaverse. There can only be so many alternate realities. -- Elok

          Comment


          • #6
            Which planet do they live on? Finland stayed out of NATO because they were afraid of the Soviet reaction to their joining. Sweden partly for the same reason.
            So the countries that joined NATO were not afraid of the USSR, while the countries that did not were afraid of the USSR. Why would countries that were not afraid join, while countries that were afraid would not? Is that not illogical.

            Comment


            • #7
              More crazy-talk


              Secret EU plot to kill Nato

              By NIC CECIL
              Political Correspondent

              A SECRET EU plot to wreck Nato and torpedo the UK’s influence in Europe was sensationally laid bare by Spain’s Prime Minister yesterday.

              He vowed his country would stand shoulder to shoulder with fellow Iraq war weasels France and Germany — to dictate a common EU defence policy that would leave Britain sidelined.

              Jose Luis Rodriguez Zapatero brazenly declared the ultimate aim was to challenge America.

              He declared: “Europe must believe that it can be in 20 years the most important world power. We want to arrange the European future at the side of France and Germany. Spain sees itself with France and Germany as never before.”

              His comments were a huge blow to Tony Blair, who has fought to make the UK, Germany and France the key power-trio in Europe.

              Zapatero was quizzed by German magazine Der Spiegel about the EU’s continuing need for US troops to deal with crises in the Balkans under the Nato umbrella.

              He said: “Naturally it will still last some time, until we develop a closed defence policy. That can happen only after the agreement on a common foreign policy. The EU constitution is an important step in this direction.

              “In 15 to 20 years we will surely have a foreign service for the EU.”

              Socialist Zapatero — slammed for surrendering to terrorist demands when he withdrew Spanish troops from Iraq — said the constitution was a “milestone” on the road to a European military and economic superpower.

              Shadow Foreign Secretary Michael Ancram stormed: “This is yet another example of the real EU agenda of the EU constitution. It makes a nonsense of Tony Blair’s claims to have achieved an EU constitution which preserves national sovereignty.”

              Neil O’Brien, of anti-EU constitution group Vote No, said: “Tony Blair has been suckered into signing an EU constitution which would make it hard for Britain to work with the US.”

              Yesterday Zapatero and German Chancellor Gerhard Schroeder agreed to boost defence co-operation over tanks, torpedoes and missiles.

              The Spanish PM insisted in his interview that he wanted closer relations with the US — as long as there was an end to the war in Iraq and a greater role for the UN.

              But President George Bush showed what he thought of him when Zapatero phoned to congratulate him on his election victory. Mr Bush refused to come on the line.


              CSPA

              Comment


              • #8
                Like all Europeans, the Guardian missed the point. NATO ISN'T a threat to Europe, it IS a threat to us.

                The 140,000 troops we have in Europe would be better off here defending OUR borders.

                Let NATO go the way of the dodo.
                "And his word shall carry
                death eternal to those who
                stand against righteousness."

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Tripledoc


                  So the countries that joined NATO were not afraid of the USSR, while the countries that did not were afraid of the USSR. Why would countries that were not afraid join, while countries that were afraid would not? Is that not illogical.
                  Were did I say that the countries that did join the NATO were not afraid of the SU?

                  You might want, just as a start, to consider that no (then) NATO country was as exposed to a possible Soviet attack as Finland. In fact, only Norway and Turkey have direct borders with the SU, and the Norwegian one is very short. You might also wonder whether countries that had just been liberated by the Brits and Americans might have been more inclined to trust them with their security than such that escaped the war (Sweden) or had the Brits declare war on them to make the Soviets happy (Finland).
                  Why can't you be a non-conformist just like everybody else?

                  It's no good (from an evolutionary point of view) to have the physique of Tarzan if you have the sex drive of a philosopher. -- Michael Ruse
                  The Nedaverse I can accept, but not the Berzaverse. There can only be so many alternate realities. -- Elok

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    They walk the walk. They talk the talk. But they don't think the think. In the wake of the huge support given to George Bush last week, it's time we realised how different America's majority culture is, and changed our policies accordingly.
                    What Americans share with Europeans are not values, but institutions. The distinction is crucial. Like us, they have a separation of powers between executive and legislature, an independent judiciary, and the rule of law. But the American majority's social and moral values differ enormously from those which guide most Europeans.


                    So what if there are differences? We can still be allies. Anyway I think these differences have been ridiculously exaggerated in the wake of the presidential election. This "article" reeks of hysteria. Ooh yes.
                    CSPA

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      It's only a matter of time before the EU (what portion of it that Old Europe can rally to their side, at least) breaks completely with the US and joins its new allies in Russia and China in an attempt to undermine American power. Better get ready for it.
                      KH FOR OWNER!
                      ASHER FOR CEO!!
                      GUYNEMER FOR OT MOD!!!

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Gangerolf
                        This "article" reeks of hysteria. Ooh yes.
                        Ya Think?

                        The Guardian's "G2" section was fronted by a page of solid black containing just two small words: "Oh, God."

                        I make no bones about my moral support for [terrorist] organizations. - chegitz guevara
                        For those who aspire to live in a high cost, high tax, big government place, our nation and the world offers plenty of options. Vermont, Canada and Venezuela all offer you the opportunity to live in the socialist, big government paradise you long for. –Senator Rubio

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          To Last Conformist.

                          Was the real reason behind Sweden not wanting to join NATO that they had followed a policy of creating a Nordic defence union. However, policy circles in Denmark and Norway did not agree with that since they feared this would give Sweden a dominating role. Therefore Sweden did not choose to join NATO, because it was not in their national interest.

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                          • #14
                            I wholly agree with that article.
                            Que l’Univers n’est qu’un défaut dans la pureté de Non-être.

                            - Paul Valery

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              NATO is worthless. Americans and Europeans disagree too much to be effective allies anymore.

                              Better let it die. It does no one any good. Who's it supposed to protect Europe from? Russia? They can't even beat the Chechens?

                              Finland? Well they are evil...
                              Only feebs vote.

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