Dealing with Fundamentalism: Secular alternative, or take back the church?

[:) Smiley]

Kucikoo, go read the bible. At the very least, the first and last chapters, they're the most exciting. The allusion Ben gives is in a different one though, somewhere in the Old Testament.

[Kuciwalker]

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi
You say it is possible to be enlightened, and yet to keep your mind in the gutter.

When you do this you are keeping your light, (enlightened), under a bushel, (bush).

It works both ways, if you look up the biblical allusion. You are wasting your talents.

I understand that much. I don't understand the funny part.

(Is the reference to the burning bush?)

[Whaleboy]

I'd also be interested in seeing the statistics for Europe those numbers are meaningless otherwise.

Can't give you numbers I'm afraid, evolution is accepted science in the population in most of Europe, none more so than the UK... I'd imagine it would be difficult to find a creationist who isn't an evangelical Christian, who (thank god) are still a small minority here.

[Ben Kenobi]

Bush!

Get your mind back in the gutter!

[Kuciwalker]

Without numbers, all of that post is meaningless

[Ben Kenobi]

Smiley, it's a NT allusion.

Matthew 5:15

"Neither do people light a lamp and put it under a bowl. Instead they put it on its stand, and it gives light to everyone in the house."

[Whaleboy]

Without numbers, all of that post is meaningless

No, it's an effective observation, again I refer to the NG article which says that evol. is prevalent in Europe, almost non-existent in the minds of those in the Middle East, and a minority in the USA.

[Ben Kenobi]

That's still faith in the story, you're merely describing what they have faith in. I *could* have faith in the deterministic properties of the freckles on the nose of the giant pixie, just as BS as God, but still faith.

No more faith required than one has for other historical sources.

[Ben Kenobi]

No, it's an effective observation, again I refer to the NG article which says that evol. is prevalent in Europe, almost non-existent in the minds of those in the Middle East, and a minority in the USA.

Given that a substantial minority in Europe are Muslim, I'll bet Whaleboy's off here.

[Kuciwalker]

Originally posted by Whaleboy
No, it's an effective observation, again I refer to the NG article which says that evol. is prevalent in Europe, almost non-existent in the minds of those in the Middle East, and a minority in the USA.

Presumably it had the numbers there? Again, I could easily observe that evolutoin is prevalent in the US, but without the numbers its meaningless.

[Kuciwalker]

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi
No more faith required than one has for other historical sources.

Most historical sources don't significantly violate observable physical laws.

[Whaleboy]

No, faith is not required in scientific questions, for example, the theory that the Earth orbits the Sun does not require faith, nor does evolution. There is empirical evidence for that, as there is for history, since a good historian or critical theorist will take a largely scientific approach. That cannot be applied to faith now can it? Then I default back to my position that they are inversely proportional, albeit not dualistic.

[Whaleboy]

Presumably it had the numbers there? Again, I could easily observe that evolutoin is prevalent in the US, but without the numbers its meaningless.

Why? We use qualified statements all the time in debates and they hold meaning. You could either take it as a premise or an assumption and then address it with quantities if the need arises but I shouldn't imagine that would be necessary here.

Most historical sources don't significantly violate observable physical laws.

[Ben Kenobi]

Skywalker:

Most historical sources don't significantly violate observable physical laws.

True, which is why it is significant to read the account as to the measures taken.

Even the Jews admit an empty tomb, in accusing the disciples of stealing the body.

[Whaleboy]

Given that a substantial minority in Europe are Muslim, I'll bet Whaleboy's off here.

Just over 1 million out of 60 million in the UK, and out of those the majority are second or third generation, moderate and educated in evolution. I can only speak from personal experience when I say that the majority of my Muslim friends concur with evolution theory, indeed in the semetic religions, it is very orthodox Jews, evangelical Christians and extremist Muslims that hold creationist views at the institutional level. Even the Catholic church accepts evolution with a caveat of uncertainty as to what caused it.