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Controversial Dutch Filmmaker Theo van Gogh killed
Originally posted by germanos
I would be very surprised if your numberorogy hold any signifigance. Madrid wasn't 911 days after 9/11 after all.
Better yet, if there *is* a significance in the numerology, it would suggest that the motive *isn't* islamic. After all, Fortuyn was killed by a white animal rights activist, not a muslim. There is no real link between Fortuyn and muslim fundamentalism (except that I'm sure they hated him too)...
Originally posted by laurentius
I dunno, maybe. You sure you aint too? The fact that someone whose name is Albert Speer, who is an American who are well known for their hidden structural racism plus that you are a muslim, who tend to build their views of the world around hating jews, west and any other infidel calls us racist. It kinda takes away your credibility.
First, on the nos-site, if you go to the timeline link, you'll see in the timeline at 10:10
10:10 - Justitie meldt dat er "islamitische teksten" zijn gevonden bij het slachtoffer
translation: 10:10 - Justice announces that 'islamitic texts' are found by the victim.
germanos: that the text found on van Gogh is in arabic is not a fact, not even on the source you quote.
I have yet to hear that the justice department has confirmed this is the case.
Man, what's the problem with just saying what happened. An islamist had killed van Gogh and pinned texts from the koran with a knife in his chest.
If a christian would kill John Kerry and pin texts from the bible in his chest with a knife, I would be the first to accept that the guy who did that did a terrible thing, and I would declare my disgust 100 times in public here.
But guys like you keep on claiming that "things are not sure yet and we don't know the motives for sure as well."
In what kind of world are you living?
It is good you mention the short film he has made. If the note indeed is in arabic, then it might as well be a '***-for-tat'* by the perpetrator.
Pherhaps. I must say in disgust that I really disrespect you for laughing about that.
The women in his movie were violently harmed by their husbands, and had the koran-texts projected on their body that allow or even tell to demolish your wife.
I'm the first to say that van Gogh should've never done that. But you, you just laugh about it.
It's horrible to kill someone like a beast (van Gogh was crawling away from his murderer, begging to not do this. The murderer followed him, stung him with a knife. And when van gogh died his murdered calmly pinned a message on his death body. And you have to laugh about that? Horrible.
I would be very surprised if your numberorogy hold any signifigance. Madrid wasn't 911 days after 9/11 after all.
I haven't calculated Madrid and 911. I believed the person who told me.
There is a 911 days gap between may 6th and november 2th. I don't know if that holds any significanse. It might be pure accidental. I doubt it though.
On the reason why political violence would be acceptable nowadays in Holland: it's not.
That's true.
Though much people will feel scared now the following months, when speaking out loud about islam.
On the famed Dutch tolerance: it does not really exist, and I hold this position for 20 years now. The Dutch tolerance is more like: You can do what you want, as long as it doesn't interfere with me. I still think you're a dickhead though, and you can go stuff it if you come near me.
I think 'it' is getting near to a lot of Dutch nowadays.
Well said.
Besides that you miss an important part: "We are tolerant as long as you're as tolerant as we are, and for that reason share the same ideas as we do"
Unfortunately, van Gogh did little in bringing people together, quite the opposite IMO.
That's true as well.
What happened today in Amsterdam is not that horrible because VAN GOGH was killed, but it's horrible because van Gogh was killed FOR HIS OPINION.
Which is indeed not 100% sure yet. But it's 95% sure for sure. Denying that is a foolish thing to do.
There has been a commemoration in Amsterdam, and frankly I am quite scared that now van Gogh, with all his diatribes, is now hailed by national and local politicians as the great defender of Free Speech. In fact they condone now his insulting ways that he thought was debate.
That's true again. (we do not disagree that much )
I keep saying, it's not van Gogh who's that important. It's the reason why he is murdered.
Besides that, besides that big load of bs the guy unleashed, he did actually write good articles as well.
I fear that we will see a great surge in insults and violence. Van Gogh's ways will become the norm, he was such a good guy after all
I hope you're wrong.
Locotus: Better yet, if there *is* a significance in the numerology, it would suggest that the motive *isn't* islamic. After all, Fortuyn was killed by a white animal rights activist, not a muslim. There is no real link between Fortuyn and muslim fundamentalism (except that I'm sure they hated him too)...
The 911 would be significant.
Besides that, Fortuyn was killed for his opinion on foreigners. Both Fortuyn and van Gogh are killed for their opinion on islam.
And indeed, in Fortuyn's case he was killed by a dutch man.
Formerly known as "CyberShy"
Carpe Diem tamen Memento Mori
Originally posted by CyberShy
Besides that, Fortuyn was killed for his opinion on foreigners. Both Fortuyn and van Gogh are killed for their opinion on islam.
And indeed, in Fortuyn's case he was killed by a dutch man.
No, I think Fortuyn was killed because Volkert truly believed that he was a walking disaster area, would make a completely horrible politician on every issue and would lead the whole country to complete and utter ruin.
That murder was not motivated by religion, unless you stretch the concept of "religion" quite far.
"I'm too young and too male to be the mother of a seventeen year old female me!"
Originally posted by CyberShy
First, on the nos-site, if you go to the timeline link, you'll see in the timeline at 10:10
Then the NOS made the same mistake as some people in this thread: they jumped to conclusions. At the press conference of 1ish it was explicitly stated by the police department that no information on the note (either language or content) was known. To the best of my knowledge they have not changed their position on this.
It struck me anyway that in the morning the journalists of the NOS already seemed to have concluded for themselves that the killer must've been a muslim fundie. It was only after an eye witness pointed out it the Jalabah could've been a disguise that they suddenly started to show some reservations. Yay for the integrity of the NOS...
Man, what's the problem with just saying what happened. An islamist had killed van Gogh and pinned texts from the koran with a knife in his chest.
Because this is exactly what everyone was saying when Pim Fortuyn was murdered, and they were WRONG. This is exactly was everyone was saying after the attempted 'assassination' on Van Aartsen (I think it was him?), and they were WRONG.
Yes, right now there are strong clues that it was a muslim, but there is still no conclusive evidence for that whatsoever. Like I said before, it's so easy and quite frankly very scary that everyone immediately jumps to the conclusion that muslims must've done it -- even if in this case they might in retrospect be proven to be correct...
But guys like you keep on claiming that "things are not sure yet and we don't know the motives for sure as well."
In what kind of world are you living?
In a world that is not black and white, where reason and logic prevail over 'onderbuikgevoelens'...
I haven't calculated Madrid and 911. I believed the person who told me.
Yeah, that seems to be a theme with you...
What happened today in Amsterdam is not that horrible because VAN GOGH was killed, but it's horrible because van Gogh was killed FOR HIS OPINION.
I agree that that's the key point I didn't like Van Gogh one bit but if I didn't live so far from Amsterdam I might've considered attending that demonstration myself.
Besides that, Fortuyn was killed for his opinion on foreigners. Both Fortuyn and van Gogh are killed for their opinion on islam.
Fortuyn was killed because "he was a danger to the weaker groups in society", not for his opinions on Islam specifically. To say Van Gogh was killed for his opinion on Islam is still speculation, even if you don't like it. It's looking likely, but let's wait a few days and base such important conclusions on facts, not suspicions...
vd Graaf did not murder Fortuyn bc of religion indeed.
His own motivation, as given in the courtroom, was bc fortuyn was, in vdGraaf's opinion, a danger for certain groups in our society.
Shortly, Fortuyn's opinion on the muslim faith was a reason for vdGraaf to kill him. Among others indeed.
Formerly known as "CyberShy"
Carpe Diem tamen Memento Mori
But guys like you keep on claiming that "things are not sure yet and we don't know the motives for sure as well."
In what kind of world are you living?
Guys like us desperately keep hoping that it wasn't an Islamist looney because we are terrified by what will happen when it was. We are scared because of another Kristallnacht that might happen...
We are just one ****ed-up country...
Within weeks they'll be re-opening the shipyards
And notifying the next of kin
Once again...
But guys like you keep on claiming that "things are not sure yet and we don't know the motives for sure as well."
In what kind of world are you living?
Guys like us desperately keep hoping that it wasn't an Islamist looney because we are terrified by what will happen when it was. We are scared because of another Kristallnacht that might happen...
We are just one ****ed-up country...
a crackdown on islamic activity might prevent another kiristallnacht?
Que l’Univers n’est qu’un défaut dans la pureté de Non-être.
But guys like you keep on claiming that "things are not sure yet and we don't know the motives for sure as well."
In what kind of world are you living?
Guys like us desperately keep hoping that it wasn't an Islamist looney because we are terrified by what will happen when it was. We are scared because of another Kristallnacht that might happen...
We are just one ****ed-up country...
Don't be silly. Kristallnight won't happen because of this.
It was an islamist looney, and things are still fine.
All sane people know that we can't blame the muslim community for this.
And I can see your hopes. But your hopes are idle in this. I think keeping denying his muslim background will earlier result in the effects you're afraid of.
More or less like the Spanish governament waited 3 days to accept that Al Qa'ida did the Madrid Bombing, and not the ETA.
keep your hopes up, but get real as well. please.
Formerly known as "CyberShy"
Carpe Diem tamen Memento Mori
Why would criticism of the treatment of women in Islamic countries be considered controversial? It is a well known fact that women are essentially second class citizens in a number of Islamic countries, including Iran, Saudi Arabia, Jordan, (northern) Nigeria and a number of the Gulf states. By and large the most outspoken Islamic groups advocate the oppression of women and are not at all defensive about their opinions.
"I say shoot'em all and let God sort it out in the end!
I get the feeling that the media are being a tad apologetic of this killing by consistently referring to van Gogh as being "controversial". What difference does it make in the context of a headline reporting a killing that the victim was "controversial"?
The main news is that he's been killed, not that he was a controversial figure (to some) when alive. Such subjective labels should not be in headlines on matters of life and death. If it's so important to report the subjective impression of the man, it should be done in the story, not the headline.
Perhaps it's unintentional, but I have my doubts.
They did the same thing when Fortuyn was killed. Not mind you, when Swedish foreign secretary Anna Lindh was stabbed to death. Eventhough she too must have been controversial, at least to the killer.
I was laughing at the autocensor in ***-for-tat.
Interesting observations you make of that though.
Most of what you wrote has been rebutted by Locotus and Hueij, so I won't answer in detail.
The following quote is very interesting though:
Pherhaps. I must say in disgust that I really disrespect you for laughing about that.
The women in his movie were violently harmed by their husbands, and had the koran-texts projected on their body that allow or even tell to demolish your wife.
I'm the first to say that van Gogh should've never done that.
emphasis mine
Ehrrrm... Does that actually mean you agree with the idea that van Gogh should not have been allowed to do that?
On the 'facts' : I must say that Locutus put it very well: it is all this jumping to conclusions that gets people in trouble. When I checked the link, it said it was thought it were islamic texts. AFAIK there is still no official conformation of this.
For the record: I do not laugh at van Gogh's death, and I certainly do not think he deserved it in any way.
IMO, van Gogh was an unconsiderate bastard, and he mistook the freedom of speech for the freedom to insult.
This is why I am so upset about the reactions by the politicians: people might get the idea it is ok to insult, since if you can't insult somebody your freedom of speech is violated. A similar issue played a role with regard to Fortuyn. He was somebody as well who appeared to get great pleasure from insulting others.
To me, freedom of speech is a great good, since it allows for debate. Hurling insults usually blocks debate. Van Gogh always thought he made a good point if his insults wrought anger from his oponents. But instead I think that if you have to throw insults around to get your point across, it really means you're a poor debater.
I heard about his work... critically speaking it was crap and he was just inflaming stuff, taking things on face value without examining properly and whatnot, but no-one deserves to be murdered
"I work in IT so I'd be buggered without a computer" - Words of wisdom from Provost Harrison
"You can be wrong AND jewish" - Wiglaf :love:
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