40000 Rapes in Congo

[Brundlefly]

Originally posted by Drachasor
The slave trade did do great damage to the existing governments in Africa, and quite argueably some even collapsed because of it.

However, there are are number of things you have to then consider about this.

1. No one should be "thanking god for slavery" since the trade caused great harm overall. It is quite possible that *without* the slave trade, Africa would have developed in a much more progressive and peaceful manner, thanks to the fact the native governments didn't collapse. The slave trade made Africa worse and caused a great deal of anarchy which Africa is still recovering from in many areas, imho.

2. Nor should anyone be thanking the slavers. That is like thanking someone for giving you a job after they kill your family on purpose. You might be better off with the job than you would have been jobless and an orphan, but that doesn't mean you should be thankful to the murdering job-giver.

3. At best you could say that looking back, it is perhaps better to of had your ancesters enslaved as opposed to staying in Africa, but this isn't the case for everyone in Africa certainly, so you can't be entirely certain about this. In any case, this is being thankful that you were involved in a lesser disaster, or less affected by the disaster. It was still a disaster however.

-Drachasor

Okay, I am answering one of your posts.

Regarding:

Your #1: You cant base an argument on "without the slave trade". Slavery happened. It is wrong for one race to enslave another. I hope it never happens again. My argument challenges the traditional idea that nothing good came from American slavery.

Your #2: No one is thanking the slavers.

Your #3: Dont understand what you are arguing. You seem to be agreeing with me. There is no way for an African-American to know if he came from an area in Africa that is now stable or chaotic. Either way, you need to consider whether the African race is better off having had the opportunity to assimilate to a stronger culture through slavery.

[Drachasor]

You've posted things about "being thankful for slavery" and such, and have said people should be thankful slavery happened.

At best...at best there could be some sort of small thankfulness that you aren't in one of the horrible places in Africa and are instead in the U.S. However, a lot of places in Africa aren't that bad and as such immigration would have been quite possible and even preferable. Some places even have very, very high standards of living, such as Namibia.

There should be no thanking of slave traders or of slavery in general. You have implied there should be:

American slavery has benefit the African race as a whole

Slavery did not benefit the African race as a whole, the effects have been horrible and long-lasting. One should not be thankful for evils that existed or currently exist simply because they were bound to happen either.

-Drachasor

[Caligastia]

Re: Re: Re: Consider this...

Originally posted by bfg9000
It is better for me to argue this not as it benefits individual African-Americans, but how American slavery has benefit the African race as a whole because it has allowed Africans to assimilate into a stronger conquering culture and make significant contributions to humanity. Contributions that they were not going to make had they been left in Africa to be ravaged by 19th-century European Imperialist economic exploitation and colonization.

Yes, I think there has been some benefit, just as there is almost always some benefit to the mixing of different races and cultures.

[Bugs ****ing Bunny]

Originally posted by Dr Strangelove


Shall we discuss India in the 1930s and 1940s? Shall we perhaps mention a number of incidents during which British troops fired upon innocent unarmed Indian citizens? Perhaps we should discuss some of Mahatma Ghandi's observations of British society and its treatment of "wogs"? We could discuss Britain's attempt to squeeze taxes out of penniless Africans by forcing adult males, the family providers into conscripted labor, periods often encompassing the better part of the year in order to pay a "head tax", often causing the starvation of entire families. Shall we examine a number of incidents of mass racial violence occuring in Britain over the last 50 years involving whites attacking a variety of darker races. Shall we mention groups such as the BNP in such a context? Oh, pray tell, shall I go on.....and on.....and on.....and on?

Not necessary. I'm under no illusions that British treatment of ethnics in a colonial setting was poor. However to meet BFG's challenge, I just had to produce a country better than the US, and I'm happy that I've managed to do so.

It's like the old joke about two men faced with a lion, and one of them putting on running shoes, you see?

[MrFun]

Re: Some reading for you

Originally posted by bfg9000



I plan to read this book. I hope all of you will read it too and then perhaps we can have another discussion on this topic with people who are willing to look at it objectively.

There are stupid people in all race groups -- such as this black individual.

So what?

[Dis]

Re: Re: Some reading for you

Originally posted by MrFun



There are stupid people in all race groups -- such as this black individual.

So what?

why can't you just admit he's right?

[Drachasor]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Consider this...

Originally posted by Caligastia

Originally posted by bfg9000
It is better for me to argue this not as it benefits individual African-Americans, but how American slavery has benefit the African race as a whole because it has allowed Africans to assimilate into a stronger conquering culture and make significant contributions to humanity. Contributions that they were not going to make had they been left in Africa to be ravaged by 19th-century European Imperialist economic exploitation and colonization.

Yes, I think there has been some benefit, just as there is almost always some benefit to the mixing of different races and cultures.

But slavery as a whole was not beneficial to Africa or Africans. Slavery wrecked a terrible devastation on the people taken and those that remained.

-Drachasor

[Bugs ****ing Bunny]

Exactly. We can only speculate on how many enlightened African leaders and thinkers ended up picking cotton.

[Brundlefly]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Consider this...

Originally posted by Drachasor

But slavery as a whole was not beneficial to Africa or Africans. Slavery wrecked a terrible devastation on the people taken and those that remained.

-Drachasor

Slavery was beneficial to the African race.

The sole purpose of a race of people is to perpetuate itself. If they are unable to do that through domination of other cultures then they must do it through assimilation to stronger cultures. A race must find a way to send its genes into future generations by means that give the greatest opportunity to proliferate. Africans took advantage of a great injustice in slavery to assimilate to American culture and position the African race for a bright successful future. There would be no bright successful future for Africans had they not taken advantage of the opportunity slavery provided them.

Certain people in this thread argue that if Africa had just been left alone they would have evolved into a world power. How could they have ever evolved into a world power being weaker than Europe and subject to exploitation from Europe? If slavery never happened, would that have stopped the exploitation of Africa by European Imperialists in the 19th century? Africa was destined to be exploited in some way because of its relative weakness to Europe. Because of that exploitation there was no way to build infrastructure necessary to develop great minds or defend themselves properly. Point is: Africa was NEVER going to develop those "great minds in the cotton field" that Laz talks about - slavery or not.

Slavery provided the quickest route for African assimilation to a world power. Slavery has devestated the African people in many ways, but when you consider how it has helped Africans perpetuate their race - the net result is that slavery is the best thing that has happened to them.

[Spiffor]

There is no African race, at least, not a singular one. There is more biological diversity among humans in Africa than in the rest of the world combined.

And when you see the demographics of Africa today, it seems the Africans have been able to perpetrate themselves quite nicely, without slavery. You may even notice that there are more Blacks in Africa than Blacks in the whole of Americas. Funny that, by reading you, I'd have believed the non-enslaved Africans had gone extinct

[Brundlefly]

Originally posted by Spiffor
There is no African race, at least, not a singular one. There is more biological diversity among humans in Africa than in the rest of the world combined.

And when you see the demographics of Africa today, it seems the Africans have been able to perpetrate themselves quite nicely, without slavery. You may even notice that there are more Blacks in Africa than Blacks in the whole of Americas. Funny that, by reading you, I'd have believed the non-enslaved Africans had gone extinct

Look at the slaughter of African nationals in Sudan helpless against the Arab-based government. The genocides in the countries of central Africa. Who provides a greater future for the African race: those Africans assimilated into American culture via slavery or those Africans living in Africa right now? Which group do you think is more vulnerable to future exploitation and dominance?

[Asmodean]

My God, the problems that you Americans have with racial issues never cease to amaze me.

*Asmodean gets on his knees and thanks God that a) he was not born in America and b) he lives in a country where race is not an issue)

Asmodean

EDIT: Added "with" to first sentence

[Ming]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Consider this...

Originally posted by bfg9000
There would be no bright successful future for Africans had they not taken advantage of the opportunity slavery provided them.

Taken advantage of the opportunity slavery provided them...



All slavery got them was a one way ticket to another country (during which many didn't survive the trip) and a life of hard work with no freedom when they arrived.

If slavery hadn't existed, they would have eventually spread around the globe naturally, and have entered the global community as equals instead of slaves with no rights... and been in a better position to accomplish greatness

Slavery provided the quickest route for African assimilation to a world power.

More like it set them back as they had to deal with the fact that they were treated as second class humans for ages... and are still treated as such in many places today. If it hadn't happened, they could have come to the US, as many other nationalities did, and succeeded like many others did... without waiting for the limited freedom they earned from the Civil War... It would have been much quicker, and they would be in a much better position today.

Slavery has devestated the African people in many ways, but when you consider how it has helped Africans perpetuate their race - the net result is that slavery is the best thing that has happened to them.

Perpetuate their race?
They would have been doing just fine perpetuating themselves without slavery... Slavery did devestate them... and has given them NO TANGIBLE beneffits.

As far as the best thing that happened to them... slavery is the basis for most of the prejudice they still face today... Just think how much better they could be today if they never had to deal with racial prejudice that slavery caused them...

[Caligastia]

Originally posted by Asmodean
*Asmodean gets on his knees and thanks God that a) he was not born in America and b) he lives in a country where race is not an issue)

Oh really?

[Caligastia]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Consider this...

Originally posted by Ming
Just think how much better they could be today if they never had to deal with racial prejudice that slavery caused them...

I think it's a bit naive to assume that prejudice against africans is mainly from slavery. Why do you think it is that practically every other race in the world looks down on black africans? Because they are backward. How else would they be so easily enslaved?