EU is becoming anti-christian in politics

[BlackCat]

Of course i would. Sometimes it's nessecary to say things in a way that makes it unmistakably what you mean and pointing out it's a parrallel. You just chose to misunderstand me. The reason i didn't belive he should have the job is that he has claimed clearly that he wouldn't do it as he should.

I don't understand. Sex between married couples has never been a sin.

I don't understand your second question, please explain further.

I agree, europe isn't the main source for growth, but i still think we are too many - europe are wery small but still we use a serious amount of resources. Also i don't think we send a reasonable signal if we say "just send your surplus of people", because then the most problematic contries are less obliged to do something about the real problem.

I hate to say it, but i has to say a positive thing about the terrorregime in china. Their one child policy may be what can rescue the world; amy other countries adobt the same policy.

[Heresson]

Of course i would. Sometimes it's nessecary to say things in a way that makes it unmistakably what you mean and pointing out it's a parrallel. You just chose to misunderstand me. The reason i didn't belive he should have the job is that he has claimed clearly that he wouldn't do it as he should.

You deliberately used a comparison that insulted catholics.

I don't understand. Sex between married couples has never been a sin.

Of course it was. Married couples should have not get pleasure from it, no experimenting, no sex for pleasure, just a sex from time to time to make the human rase not go extinct

The second point - well, You said that there are too many people and that unemployment proves that. But it is a wrong thought in my opinion. Some don't work because they don't want to, some because they can't, some because there are not enough jobs in the sector they'd like to work in...
And anyway, immigrants come and there is a work for them. Europe gets old, and working masses are needed to pay for supporting the elderly. With current natural growth, without immigration, it isn't possible.

China - yes, perhaps. But how will You force 1 child policy in other countries?
And what resources do we miss?
We must use the ones we have wiser, and learn to use new ones, especially the never-ending ones, like solar power. That's enough.

[Heresson]

Oh, and He didn't claim He wouldn't do it the way He should.
That He thinks family should look this way, doesn't mean he wouldn't condemn the ones that would force this model on their wifes or husbands.
Again, such model of family is not a discrimination itself, only when You force it on someone.
That He thinks gay activities are sinful, doesn't mean He wouldn't protect gays from discrimination.
The question is what do You mean by discrimination.
You can think that lack of possibility of gay marriage is a discrimination, but the same You can think it is not.
It is a matter of discussion and I'm not sure if a majority of EU population shares the first view - or at least large part of it does not.
By all this fuss, EU officials only proved that they treat EU as a machine of forcing their political and sociological views on others.

[Kropotkin]

By all this fuss, EU officials only proved that they treat EU as a machine of forcing their political and sociological views on others.

yeah, pitty the vatican! How could such a nice institution get in the way of those evil EU-ians. Not like the vatican ever forces it's views on others.

[Proteus_MST]

Originally posted by Heresson
Oh, and He didn't claim He wouldn't do it the way He should.
That He thinks family should look this way, doesn't mean he wouldn't condemn the ones that would force this model on their wifes or husbands.
Again, such model of family is not a discrimination itself, only when You force it on someone.
That He thinks gay activities are sinful, doesn't mean He wouldn't protect gays from discrimination.
The question is what do You mean by discrimination.
You can think that lack of possibility of gay marriage is a discrimination, but the same You can think it is not.
It is a matter of discussion and I'm not sure if a majority of EU population shares the first view - or at least large part of it does not.
By all this fuss, EU officials only proved that they treat EU as a machine of forcing their political and sociological views on others.

Well, but maybe the Discrimination of Gays could be a major Problem for Buttiglione.
According to a Newspaper Article I read today, Butiglione actively tried to stop Anti Discrimination Laws against gays and Lesbians.
And according to some Internet-Sources these laws he tried to stop didn´t concern Gay Marriages, but were intended to stop Workplace Discrimination against Gays and Lesbians.

See here:

According Britain’s out gay Member of the European Parliament, Michael
Cashman MEP, Buttiglione opposed including non-discrimination on the
grounds of sexual orientation in the EU’s new Charter of Fundamental
Rights.

The Italian LGBT movement, ArciGay, has confirmed that Buttiglione
also watered down the EU’s directive banning discrimination against
lesbians and gays in the workplace, permitting homophobic
discrimination by key Italian government bodies.

http://uk.gay.com/boards/read.php?f=5&t=9856&i=9856

But Mr Cashman said Mr Buttiglione, a former Europe minister in Silvio Berlusconi's Italian cabinet, had put forward an amendment to delete non-discrimination on sexual grounds during the drawing up of the EU's charter of fundamental rights.

"We should not judge him by what he says but what he did and does."

http://www.guardian.co.uk/gayrights/story/0,12592,1325217,00.html

If the above stated is true, he is truely unfit to hold a position in which he has to supervise human rights and anti-discrimination policies within the EU.

[germanos]

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi


Are all the children that fall under this Dutch bill terminally ill?

The policy applies to all children.

A child who is depressed, could opt for assisted suicide, and depression is hardly an incurable, terminal illness.

As far as I know, there is no specific bill for children.

As far as I know, the conditions that need to be met for euthanasia is "uitzichtloos lijden", that I can best translate as 'perspectiveless suffering'.

Depression doesn't qualify.


I'm not sure, and have no figures or links to sopport the following claim, but I'm quite convinced that most euthanisia's are done by:
1: treatment is stopped, f.e. no more drugs to slow down the progress of the disease, or switching off life-support.
2: increasing the levels of morphine the patients are given.
3: and this is still quite rare: actively injecting lethal substances.

I do wish to point out that euthanasia is no easy thing to do here, and that at least two (could be even three) MD's must agree that the suffering is perspectiveless.
(Apart from the patient having the same opinion )


For what its worth: surveys done show that for the remaining family and loved ones, euthanasia enables them to cope better with the loss.
Now, that obviously doesn't mean that euthanasia is the way to go for everybody that runs the risk of dying anyway, but it does indicate that a useless prolonging of suffering may not only be damging for the patient, but for their relatives as well.

[Heresson]

Originally posted by Kropotkin
yeah, pitty the vatican! How could such a nice institution get in the way of those evil EU-ians. Not like the vatican ever forces it's views on others.

When was it last time it did?

And Proteus, perhaps You are right. Or what He was fighting against was that gay marriages are next in line.
Or that He thinks that by "discrimination in work" someone may take negative attitude towards gays in work, and I'm not sure it it should be treaten as sth bad or not; if they have the right to consider gays sinners, they should have the right to show it.
On the other hand, it is not fair towards gays to allow them to be actively condemned at work (as long as beinggay isn't a matter of choice, and I believe it is not)

[Ben Kenobi]

The church is against anticonception not because it wants people to procreate. It is because sex has always been considered something dirty and sinful. And anticonception means people make it for fun.

Outside of marriage, perhaps, but I hope you aren't also saying that inside of marriage it is the same.

Sex is not solely for procreation, though it should always be open to conception. The pleasureable aspects of sex in marriage are not sinful and should not be discouraged.

[Ned]

Ben, if you know, when did the Church first condem prostitution?

[BlackCat]

Originally posted by Heresson


You deliberately used a comparison that insulted catholics.

How can you in any way know what my reaons for any argument are ???

I don't for a second think a person with catholic belief is a child molestor per def, and certainly not a civilian catholic (that is a person born and raised in an catholic environment), but then again, several histories in the past years has proven that official catholics (priests and up) has abused their positions, so maybe you are right - unconciousless i may have made certain connections. Just to be precise - i don't in no way connect that to civilian catholics.

Originally posted by Heresson
Of course it was. Married couples should have not get pleasure from it, no experimenting, no sex for pleasure, just a sex from time to time to make the human rase not go extinct

No way, just read the bible - maybe it's mostly the old one but nevertheless it's a part of christianity.

Originally posted by Heresson
The second point - well, You said that there are too many people and that unemployment proves that. But it is a wrong thought in my opinion. Some don't work because they don't want to, some because they can't, some because there are not enough jobs in the sector they'd like to work in...
And anyway, immigrants come and there is a work for them. Europe gets old, and working masses are needed to pay for supporting the elderly. With current natural growth, without immigration, it isn't possible.

Not true. There are a extremely high unemployment rate for immigrants unless they have a high education. Supporting elderly is not an issue - that is of course they shall be supported, but it's a short term problem (maybe 20 years) due to the period where there was a large buildup in population.

Originally posted by Heresson
China - yes, perhaps. But how will You force 1 child policy in other countries?
And what resources do we miss?
We must use the ones we have wiser, and learn to use new ones, especially the never-ending ones, like solar power. That's enough.

Didn't say it would be easy.

Resorces ? Well just imagine 6+ bill. people living according to western standard and many more resources will be in trouble, and there i'm not talking about energy.

[Ben Kenobi]

Ben, if you know, when did the Church first condem prostitution?

Probably Corinthians.

1 Cor 6:12-20

Sexual Immorality

"Everything is permissible for me"--but not everything is beneficial. "Everything is permissible for me"--but I will not be mastered by anything. "Food for the stomach and the stomach for food"--but God will destroy them both. The body is not meant for sexual immorality, but for the Lord, and the Lord for the body.

By his power God raised the Lord from the dead, and he will raise us also. Do you not know that your bodies are members of Christ himself? Shall I then take the members of Christ and unite them with a prostitute? Never!

Do you not know that he who unites himself with a prostitute is one with her in body? For it is said, "The two will become one flesh." But he who unites himself with the Lord is one with him in spirit.

Flee from sexual immorality. All other sins a man commits are outside his body, but he who sins sexually sins against his own body. Do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God?

You are not your own; you were bought at a price. Therefore honor God with your body.

[Heresson]

Originally posted by BlackCat
I don't for a second think a person with catholic belief is a child molestor per def, and certainly not a civilian catholic (that is a person born and raised in an catholic environment), but then again, several histories in the past years has proven that official catholics (priests and up) has abused their positions, so maybe you are right - unconciousless i may have made certain connections. Just to be precise - i don't in no way connect that to civilian catholics.

You hold a silly anti-catholic bias. I pity You.

No way, just read the bible - maybe it's mostly the old one but nevertheless it's a part of christianity.

1) I'm telling You what the official doctrine was
2) Old Testament isn't necessarily and in all parts legitimate in Christianity

Not true. There are a extremely high unemployment rate for immigrants unless they have a high education. Supporting elderly is not an issue - that is of course they shall be supported, but it's a short term problem (maybe 20 years) due to the period where there was a large buildup in population.

And what will happen then? When will the decline of population stop?
Immigrants are needed. For cheap labour that local citizens aren't very keen to do mostly, but still.



Didn't say it would be easy.

What do You mean by 6+ bill?

I think the humanity will learn to use new resources or to grow without them. I do not see radical problems caused by population growth in highly advanced societies, if there is a proper infrastructure to deal with the wastes.