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  • EU is becoming anti-christian in politics

    That's basically what the Vatican fears, according to the following article in the WaPo.

    One of the enduring fascinating differences between the US (maybe Canada too) and the EU is that there's a strong anti-clerical strain in some countries of the EU and hardly any in the US.* This is probably due to the fact that few of the church hierarchies (catholic and protestant) has ever had any real political power at the national level in the US.**

    To be sure, there's a whole load of anti-catholicism in the US, some of which you can see on Apolyton. But anti-catholicism doesn't seem to have much political impact. For instance, Kerry is losing a whole lot more votes because he's not a "good catholic" than because he is a catholic. He is losing a lot more votes because he doesn't speak well about his faith than because he is mixing religion with the secular. (Btw, I disagree with the article in that issues such as abortion are controversial, but the fact that the church is holding strong positions that touch on these issues is uncontroversial.)

    *I don't consider the freemasons to be a church hierarchy. The anti-masons are the only movement in the US that I can remember that has shades of anti-clericalism. Besides, both the freemason and anti-mason movement died out long ago.

    Regarding the long-running pedo scandals, that leads more to a decline in the moral authority of the church hierarchy rather than any anti-clerical movement.

    **The methodists had a strong impact on the abolitionist movement. I'm sure you could find other isolated exceptions, such as prohibitionists, but these exceptions seem to prove the rule.

    Vatican Is Alarmed by Political Trend In Europe
    Policies in Many Countries Contradict Church Doctrine

    By Daniel Williams
    Washington Post Foreign Service
    Wednesday, October 20, 2004; Page A16

    VATICAN CITY -- The Vatican is becoming increasingly alarmed at what it regards as official anti-Roman Catholic sentiment and secular trends in Europe, as government after government approves measures on abortion, family law and scientific study that run counter to Catholic teaching.

    Vatican concerns rocketed into view during a controversy in the European Parliament this month over remarks on homosexuality and women by an Italian politician who has close ties to the Holy See.

    On Oct. 5, a committee of European Parliament members voted to oppose Italy's nomination of Rocco Buttiglione, a Christian Democrat, to be the European Union's justice commissioner. During a hearing before the Parliament's Civil Liberties Committee, he had labeled homosexuality a sin and asserted that the family exists so a woman can raise children under a man's protection. Buttiglione is a friend of Pope John Paul II and various high-ranking Vatican officials.

    "It looks like a new Inquisition. It is a lay Inquisition, but it is so nasty," Cardinal Renato Martino, who heads the Vatican's Council for Justice and Peace, told reporters this week in response to the dispute. "You can freely insult and attack Catholics and nobody will say anything. If you do so for other confessions, let's see what would happen."

    The controversy was new proof of the heat of a long debate in Europe over issues of women's equality in the workplace, gay marriage, abortion, scientific research using human embryos and separation of church and state.

    Such debates are also intense in the United States, where the Vatican has waged a campaign against abortion, advising U.S. bishops on the inadmissibility of giving Communion to Catholic politicians who persist in supporting abortion rights. It did not specify names, but some bishops in the United States have said they would not administer the sacrament to Sen. John F. Kerry, the Democratic presidential candidate.

    Yet trends that go against the preaching of the pope are more advanced in parts of Western Europe than in the United States, some Vatican officials contend. To the Vatican, Europe's moral landscape is bleak.

    Vatican officials and media outlets have expressed alarm over new policies being prepared in Spain by the Socialist prime minister, Jose Luis Rodriguez Zapatero. His government is considering legalizing gay marriage, speeding up divorces and ending obligatory religious instruction in public schools.

    Concurrently, Britain has approved research on the curative possibilities of stem cells from human embryos. In the Netherlands, the practice of euthanasia continues over church objections. In Italy, secular politicians have mounted a campaign to hold a referendum aimed at loosening a new law on laboratory-assisted fertilization. The law currently prohibits the use of donor sperm, frozen embryos and surrogate mothers.

    In a speech on Sept. 20, Cardinal Camillo Ruini, the head of Italy's bishops conference, criticized Spain for "emptying the family of its significance." He accused the Italian press of "hammering" the issue of artificial insemination in order to promote a referendum. Stem cell research in Britain and euthanasia for children with incurable diseases in the Netherlands "clearly demonstrate developments that result in the loss of recognition of the uniqueness and inviolability of the human subject," Ruini said.

    The lay offensive, as some Vatican officials call it, has prompted the pope to intensify the search for common ground with non-Catholics on key moral and ethical issues. In particular, the pontiff has called for teaching and promoting the philosophical notion of "natural law," unchanging truths that underlie human activity across religion and cultures.

    In February, during an audience with Cardinal Josef Ratzinger, the head of the Vatican department of doctrine, the pope said, "Natural law, accessible per se to every rational creature, indicates the first and essential norms that regulate moral life." He urged construction of "a platform of shared values . . . on which a constructive dialogue can be developed with all men and women of goodwill and, more in general, with secular society."

    References to natural law are designed "to emphasize that issues like preserving life are not imposition of Catholic teaching but rather truths that are not religion-specific," explained the Rev. Augustine DiNoia, an assistant of Ratzinger's.

    DiNoia said that over the past 20 years, John Paul and senior Vatican officials have become disillusioned with moral and ethical trends in Europe. He said the pope, more than any of his predecessors, had embraced Western democracy on the assumption that it was rooted in natural law, including a consensus for the protection of life at conception and the sanctity of marriage and family.

    Dialogue with Europeans is complicated by histories of violent religious conflict that in some cases left behind strong sentiments against the Catholic Church, and not only in Protestant countries. Spain's civil war in the 1930s pitted Republicans against Fascists who were backed by large segments of the Catholic clergy. Catholic support for the long rule of the dictator Francisco Franco colors today's view of the church among Spain's Socialists, historical heirs to the Republican backers of the civil war.

    Even Italy, home of the papacy, contains a streak of anti-clericalism dating from the Italian nationalists' 19th-century defeat of the pope's state in central Italy and the crushing of his political power.

    Buttiglione, a seasoned politician and political science professor, was nominated to the European Commission by Italy's prime minister, Silvio Berlusconi.

    In Buttiglione's appearance before the European Parliament panel, he argued that he could keep to his own moral standards and still do the job, which would include upholding E.U. prohibitions against discrimination on the basis of race, sexual orientation and other grounds. "I may think that homosexuality is a sin, and it has no effect on politics unless I say homosexuality is a crime," he said.

    On women, he said, "The family exists to permit a woman to have children and be protected by her husband."

    Buttiglione's opponents insist they are not anti-Catholic but believe that it is proper to veto a commissioner whose views run counter to anti-discrimination laws and who has politically opposed equal rights for gays. "The justice portfolio is not appropriate for him," said Sophia Helena in't Velt, a member of the Alliance of Democrats and Liberals for Europe, a bloc that opposed Buttiglione's nomination.

    A final, full vote on Buttiglione's candidacy is scheduled for Oct. 27, when the entire list of two dozen E.U. commissioners is to be put before the European Parliament for ratification. It cannot veto only one candidate. Negotiations among E.U. politicians are underway about Buttiglione's fate. He has said he will not withdraw.
    Last edited by DanS; October 20, 2004, 12:06.
    I came upon a barroom full of bad Salon pictures in which men with hats on the backs of their heads were wolfing food from a counter. It was the institution of the "free lunch" I had struck. You paid for a drink and got as much as you wanted to eat. For something less than a rupee a day a man can feed himself sumptuously in San Francisco, even though he be a bankrupt. Remember this if ever you are stranded in these parts. ~ Rudyard Kipling, 1891

  • #2
    By the way, I view a lot of what Buttiglione has said as more having to do with Italian machismo than any real issues that need to be discussed.
    I came upon a barroom full of bad Salon pictures in which men with hats on the backs of their heads were wolfing food from a counter. It was the institution of the "free lunch" I had struck. You paid for a drink and got as much as you wanted to eat. For something less than a rupee a day a man can feed himself sumptuously in San Francisco, even though he be a bankrupt. Remember this if ever you are stranded in these parts. ~ Rudyard Kipling, 1891

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    • #3
      One of the enduring fascinating differences between the US (maybe Canada too) and the EU is that there's a strong anti-clerical strain in some countries of the EU and hardly any in the US.
      Hrm. Maybe I really should look into moving. Lots of family in Britain...

      -Arrian
      grog want tank...Grog Want Tank... GROG WANT TANK!

      The trick isn't to break some eggs to make an omelette, it's convincing the eggs to break themselves in order to aspire to omelettehood.

      Comment


      • #4
        The ACLU has pull with NATO?
        Monkey!!!

        Comment


        • #5
          I have to admit that the ACLU/NATO comment went right over my head.
          I came upon a barroom full of bad Salon pictures in which men with hats on the backs of their heads were wolfing food from a counter. It was the institution of the "free lunch" I had struck. You paid for a drink and got as much as you wanted to eat. For something less than a rupee a day a man can feed himself sumptuously in San Francisco, even though he be a bankrupt. Remember this if ever you are stranded in these parts. ~ Rudyard Kipling, 1891

          Comment


          • #6
            It's from Japher, it's unlikely to have gone OVER your head...

            -Arrian
            grog want tank...Grog Want Tank... GROG WANT TANK!

            The trick isn't to break some eggs to make an omelette, it's convincing the eggs to break themselves in order to aspire to omelettehood.

            Comment


            • #7
              It's not anti-Catholic, it's just that European governments are moving with the times and the Catholic leaders aren't - although many Catholics are.
              Jon Miller: MikeH speaks the truth
              Jon Miller: MikeH is a shockingly revolting dolt and a masturbatory urine-reeking sideshow freak whose word is as valuable as an aging cow paddy.
              We've got both kinds

              Comment


              • #8

                Comment


                • #9
                  The ACLU has pull with NATO?
                  Crap! My first post of the day... It's gonna be a long day.

                  I meant:

                  "The ACLU has pull with the EU"... don't know where I got NATO from.
                  Monkey!!!

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by DanS
                    I have to admit that the ACLU/NATO comment went right over my head.
                    ACLU is sometimes called the "anti-Christian liberties union" by religionists.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Seperation of politics and religion is a good thing anyway, it's even in the US constitution!
                      Jon Miller: MikeH speaks the truth
                      Jon Miller: MikeH is a shockingly revolting dolt and a masturbatory urine-reeking sideshow freak whose word is as valuable as an aging cow paddy.
                      We've got both kinds

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        as government after government approves measures on abortion, family law and scientific study that run counter to Catholic teaching.


                        The earth is flat indeed!!!

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Seperation of politics and religion is a good thing anyway, it's even in the US constitution!
                          As you understand the separation of church and state, it's not in the US constitution. At its founding, the US had nothing to fear from religion imposing itself on politics, but had a lot to fear from politics imposing itself on religion.
                          Last edited by DanS; October 20, 2004, 12:28.
                          I came upon a barroom full of bad Salon pictures in which men with hats on the backs of their heads were wolfing food from a counter. It was the institution of the "free lunch" I had struck. You paid for a drink and got as much as you wanted to eat. For something less than a rupee a day a man can feed himself sumptuously in San Francisco, even though he be a bankrupt. Remember this if ever you are stranded in these parts. ~ Rudyard Kipling, 1891

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            I don't see an issue. The days that the Vatican could prescribe what to think are thankfully disappearing. Religion has absolutely no place what so ever in a modern state (and it's one of my main gripes with Bush). I think in the next 100-150 years religions will largely cease to exist after the nutjobs have killed eachother off.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by DanS


                              As you understanding the separation of church and state, it's not in the US constitution. At its founding, the US had nothing to fear from religion getting into its politics.
                              Ok that is true.
                              Jon Miller: MikeH speaks the truth
                              Jon Miller: MikeH is a shockingly revolting dolt and a masturbatory urine-reeking sideshow freak whose word is as valuable as an aging cow paddy.
                              We've got both kinds

                              Comment

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