Does God exist?

[reds4ever]

....repeat for 5 pages........and continue............repeat for 5 pages......... and continue............repeat

[Ben Kenobi]

Yes. Ever heard of chemistry?

Yes I have.

Why would we expect these complex chemicals to form?

Proteins aren't that simple.

[Ben Kenobi]

As has been shown by Roger Lewin, these things aren't random, but have chaotic attractors, making some things *far* more likely than mere randomness would suggest.

Really. A link would be helpful.

[Ben Kenobi]

If you could hear the fundies around here you would believe religion is the ultimate expression of human ignorance. These fundies are the kind of folks who think fossils are creations of Satan to decieve us

Uh, right Odin.

I suppose I'm a fundy, eh?

[Drogue]

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi
Really. A link would be helpful.

Considering it's a book there isn't a link. Complexity, by Roger Lewin is probably the best way to read about it, and it cites the various academic texts that back it up. Some were available on Princeton's website a while ago, but I think that was only temporary, when they'd just been published.

[Whaleboy]

I bought him the book

I'll answer some points tomorrow, me needs sleep!

[Traianvs]

Most of the time people who do believe in God and try to prove his existance, already assume he exists beforehand. The logics of their explanations are completely bollox then. Objectively it's impossible to prove it, as everybody knows.

Besides, why would one need a deity to explain for things that are are not explained easily. How hard the questions are, there's always an explanation for it, how far fetched or impossible that may seem. Most of the time we won't be able to understand and answer certain questions because we just can't grasp them well enough; Sometimes it's simply impossible for us to explain certain questions. That's not a reason to have a God however.

There's no point in this. Every culture has created its own God(s), why should this one exist? Simply because we are the superior civilization we can say our God exists, while other mythologies and deities are untrue?

[Ben Kenobi]

Complexity,. by Roger Lewin is probably the best way to read about it, and it cites the various academic texts that back it up. Some were available on Princeton's website a while ago, but I think that was only temporary, when they'd just been published.

PM me the citations, and I'll see what I can dig up.

[Kuciwalker]

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi
Yes I have.

Why would we expect these complex chemicals to form?

Empirical observations, perhaps?

Proteins aren't that simple.

Their base components are, and readily form long chains. It's similar for RNA (which actually composed the first enzymes).

[Drogue]

Originally posted by Trajanus
There's no point in this. Every culture has created its own God(s), why should this one exist? Simply because we are the superior civilization we can say our God exists, while other mythologies and deities are untrue?

Exactly my problem. Should a, or many, gods exist, it would be a massively low probability to happen to be this one, as opposed to all others through history, and all other possible.

I don't rule out the possibility of a god or not, it's not known either way. But I'm not going to follow one faith when it is not more likely to be right than any other. I think if a god existed, that is this good and righteous force (which I would doubt), he'd be far more concerned that people have lived their lives well and amde others happy, rather than followed some particular teachings. I feel I'm a good person, and I try to make others happy. If I am to meet my maker, I think he'd understand.

[Ben Kenobi]

Most of the time people who do believe in God and try to prove his existance, already assume he exists beforehand. The logics of their explanations are completely bollox then.

Which is why we should accept the skeptics who do not believe in God, and who try to disprove the theists.

Objectively it's impossible to prove it, as everybody knows.

Everybody knows, eh? Guess some missed the bulletin.

Why don't you just drop the semblence of objectivity supposedly harnessed exclusively by the skeptics, and get down to more substantive matters?

Besides, why would one need a deity to explain for things that are are not explained easily.

Some would argue we have a hunger for God. It's not so much that he helps us understand certain things, but that he is there.

How hard the questions are, there's always an explanation for it, how far fetched or impossible that may seem.

True, and often those explanations are the ones dreamed up first by theologians.

Remember that joke about the scientists and the historian and the philosopher climbing up the mountain of truth, only to find the theologians sitting up at the top, wondering why it took everyone so long to join them?

Most of the time we won't be able to understand and answer certain questions because we just can't grasp them well enough; Sometimes it's simply impossible for us to explain certain questions. That's not a reason to have a God however.

Nor is that reason to reject God. One would expect to lack understanding even with God.

There's no point in this. Every culture has created its own God(s), why should this one exist? Simply because we are the superior civilization we can say our God exists, while other mythologies and deities are untrue?

Some say they are glimpses of God throughout history, and that by definition, ours should be better because we have the greater weight of experience, and have progressive revelation.

[Mercator]

God does not exist. Plain and simple.

There's no point in trying to prove or disprove him with any hard science, because it's not possible.

God is nothing more than an interesting anthropological phenomenon. An "invisible friend" gone awry.

[Ted Striker]

Originally posted by Mercator
God does not exist. Plain and simple.

There's no point in trying to prove or disprove him with any hard science, because it's not possible.

[reds4ever]

Originally posted by Mercator
God does not exist. Plain and simple.

There's no point in trying to prove or disprove him with any hard science, because it's not possible.

God is nothing more than an interesting anthropological phenomenon. An "invisible friend" gone awry.

Whilst I totally agree with the last paragragh, surely the second paragraph contradicts the first?

[Ben Kenobi]

Empirical observations, perhaps?

Then I suppose given the chemical composition of the early earth, we should be able to replicate protein chains.

Sadly every attempt to do so has failed. Granted, absence of evidence is not evidence of absence, but it does show there is no empirical basis for the theories put forth on the earliest formation of life here on Earth.