Apolyton Hall of Fame: September 2004

[Jon Shafer]

Originally posted by Locutus


Well, them or the spammers and trolls, depending on your point of view

Or both.

[Grandpa Troll]

Originally posted by Locutus


Well, them or the spammers and Grandpa Trolls, depending on your point of view

well..Ok..

as you wish

[DarkCloud]

I think this sentiment by Ming is probably the best notice that's been said:

And again... everything is equal right now. People vote for whoever they want. What I'm hearing is that some people don't want it to be equal... they want their small groups to have more power than the larger groups. And I just don't see that as being right.

Grandpa summed it up better than I can.

PROMOTE... VOTE... MAKE YOUR CASE. That's how it supposed to work. While some of the people mentioned have probably earned the right to be in, that's not how it works. Everybody has their own opinions, and the current systems respects that. It gives all voters across the site the chance to let their voice be heard. Maybe some small groups should start speaking a little louder

And that being said, one of the main reasons for the predominance of OTers is because at the beginning I had thought I could only start this thread in the OT- And that was true until some time in 2002 when I had a discussion with Ming and was told that posting it elsewhere would not be considered spamming... then later I was worried about time constraints in vote tallying if I expanded too much (though after some discussion I did expand) and anyways, it was the right thing to do.

So therefore, there is always going to be that initial OT-bias. But, as was also mentioned, the OTers elect older posters. And veterans who contribute to the site are to be respected.

And truth be told there is at most 1 or 2 people in the hall that I consider to be questionable- but maybe that's because I value social interaction higher than modding or programming.

However, if the programmers effect the community in great ways- (example: WesW) then they do deserve to be in.

Posters like EVC and Fez, etc. effect the forums and are in fact legends, they just didn't really have 'technical skills that some others did'... and honestly this site wouldn't be what it is without them.

Also, Ming noted an important point that I didn't realize at first- his and others lobbying for Xin Yu realized his election. Withotu that work, he would never have been elected- that can help others.

And finally, the more I think about it- this idea really resembles affirmative action- and I'm against affirmative action... it's basically tyrrany by the minority.

People like Hexagonigan and Stefan Hartel deserve to be in, but they don't have the full name recognition.
That's because their communities are small.
However, if their communites are organized, they can create voting 'blocks' like the Spanish Apolytoners have been able to do.

Therefore, I find myself in a sort of bind here. I hope that the new system of vote tallying and the vote resetting I've implemented has corrected some grandfathered problems.

Also- the more that I look at the Leaders:

alexman [16] (40) 57--103

Samson- [34] (26) 41---102

Kramsib- [37] (30) 32—100

DarkCloud- [26] (30) 37—93

Immortal Wombat- [37] (21) 20--78
Master Zen- [26] (20) 32—78

Berzerker- [7] (23) 43--72

Googlie- [23] (27) 21---71

WesW- [16] (30) 24--70
Theseus- [12] (25) 33—70
Fez/Giancarlo- [12] (29) 18-- 70

Jasev- [31] (16) 16--63

Yaroslav- [27] (18) 13--60

The more I realize that only one of them is OT-only... Fez... and that many of them don't post in the OT at all.

There is no need for future benefits for on-topic v. off-topic as far as I can see.

Actually, I think Apolyton is probably most like the US: everyone lives in their own state and remains in that state most of the time. Of course, some people commute between states, some move all over the place, but most stay in the same state most of the time

I thought people moved around quite a lot. I know I've posted just about everywhere.

Started: AC-Fiction (aug 2000-nov 2001), OT (sept 2000-july 2001), Civ III-Suggestions (aug 2000-dec 2001), Community (aug 2000-dec 2003) and then now more recently-> Other Games, Nation States, Civ IV, civ III-stories, etc.

and I don't think that I'm that unique- paddy the scot gets around, and so do many others.
-
Hmm... In conclusion, I think that there's almost no way that even on OTer'll get in next election. Therefore, I don't really see any need for affirmative action.

In the past, yes, it was unbalanced, but now is the furture and all problems should be corrected.
-
I'm glad we had a debate this time and that I wasn't the one who getting flamed at least yet.

[DarkCloud]

Locutus

If this HoF were so unofficial, they wouldn't have bothered to ask this. Also, a new directive as recently given to the news editors that this HoF should be covered in news items (and if I'm not very much mistaken one or two news items have been posted about it in the past). Plus, it's being organised by an official Apolyton Staff member. All-in-all I'd say it's at the very least semi-official. But even if it it's as unofficial as it could be, there's nothing wrong with posting suggestions for improvement, is there?

* We're finally going to get in the news! That's great!
* Hmm... I'm a Staff Member because of Civ III-Stories, not the Hall of Fame. As much as I love the Hall of Fame, this edition is the first that Mark's even acknowledged

Hopefully it will become official some day

And yes, I do value your suggestions- many others echoed them.

After much thought, though- I realized that although there admittedly was injustice in the past- the current status is not one of injustice- OTers don't have as big an advantage as I supposed when I started this particular election.

with only 2 people from 6 years of CtP history is a complete HoF, representative of all of Apolyton of the past 6+ years?

While I do agree that is very unfair, I should also note this: Was CTP as "important" to this site as Civ III? Or As Civ II? Does it ever receive as much activity as the OT?

Personally I prefer CTP to Civ III, but I'm merely asking those questions from an electiablity standpoint.

The Hall of Fame represents all of Apoltyon, but when someone's admittedly amazing contribution only affects 20 people then how really can it be said to be as important to the site as someone whose contributions daily affect thousands?

Personally I respect the people who code and program more than I respect the people who post; but the Apolytoner's Hall of Fame isn't about people who code and post- it's about people who contribute/spend time at the site... and while coding is contributing in a sense- it doesn't have the same sort of exposure that posting does.

And by the way, we do have Velociryx (a SMACer)... and hopefully Googlie will be on his way soon (so I can start voting for Hydro!)

Well, about Googlie/Harlan/WesW not getting in with the bloc votes- they've only had half-hearted support (with the exception of Harlan one month and WesW another month) People have been focusing on others... they'll probably get in eventually.

And as for the vote resetting- Harlan doesn't have to worry yet- since it's FOUR times, not 3. And I might revise that based upon what I see in the hall.

And once again, admittedly, there were biases in the hall before- but to require election of On-Topicers would be redundant at this point since 'only' on-topicers lead the polling at this point.

What I really would like to do is the Veteran's Committee.

Ming

I still support DC's efforts to have a veterans committee to take a look at people like Harlan... but I guess that didn't go over big, but I did volunteer my time to help.

Glad to know that. I wish it went over better as well. That would probably clear out any remaining injustices by retroactively voting in on-topicers to even out the numbers without actually disenfranchising anyone currently coming toward election.

PLATO
I would be glad to look at the Veteran's Committee again. Basically it died before because of a lack of interest.

I think the requirements were for the Committe to be comprised of 5 members who must have been registered in 1999 or earlier and who could each vote for 3 persons who have last posted in 2003 or whose last major contributions were made before 2001/2 and who have faded away recently. (examples would be OmniGod- the master of the Earth:2025 forum and CTP-Files manager for a time [at least I think it was CTP...], onepaul (alt.civs manager), korn469 (the list), and others- [Possibly Orcus/Ivy and Prythogenities]) The persons receiving votes from 4 of the 5 veteran's committee would be inducted that round. Votes would not carry over. I am unsure whether the ballot would be secret or open.

However, of the needed 5, only 2 or 3 signed up.

[Locutus]

Originally posted by DarkCloud
The more I realize that only one of them is OT-only... Fez... and that many of them don't post in the OT at all.

I established that myself. However: almost all the on topic posters on the nominee list are Civ2ers/Civ3ers, so although it's an improvement, it still doesn't represent the entire site.

About promotion: the only people who managed to get in based on promotion did so because they were Civ2ers and because a lot of OTers remember them. If I thought it were possible to get WesW or hexagonian or anyone else with a lot of promotion I'd do so, but it's never gonna happen. I'm sure one can find one or two people who'd be prepared to vote for someone they'd never heard of if a good case was made for them, but I'm also convinced the vast majority of people wouldn't.

I thought people moved around quite a lot. I know I've posted just about everywhere.

You do, a handful of others might, but the majority of people spend most of their time in the same community and only move if a sequel to their game is released. The best examples are probably the Spanish forum and CtP1-MP: how often do you see those posters outside their own forum? The ones that do get around get the most exposure and get noticed a lot, but that doesn't mean there are a lot of them.

While I do agree that is very unfair, I should also note this: Was CTP as "important" to this site as Civ III? Or As Civ II? Does it ever receive as much activity as the OT?

Civ3 was the 'carrying game' for this site from about late 2001 onwards. The CtP games (initially together with SMAC) were the carrying games from 1998 until 2001. IIRC the highest number of simultaneous forum visitors ever recorded was right after the release of CtP2. And it's not like the CtP games faded away after 2001: the CtP2 Source Code is an excellent example of a unique project in the gaming industry that would not be possible anywhere else and that's getting attention from a lot of people. Also, without SMAC and CtP, this site would've been just another Civ site when Civ3 came around and it's not likely we would've turned out to be so big and important for the Civ3 community. So all-in-all I'd say Civ3 and CtP (and Civ2, incidentally) were equally important to this site (I'm sure a lot of CtP bashers will strongly disagree with that, but that doesn't make it less true). SMAC and Alt Civ are perhaps slightly less important, but should certainly not be underestimated. 0 out of almost 60 positions in the HoF constitutes underestimation in my book.

The Hall of Fame represents all of Apoltyon, but when someone's admittedly amazing contribution only affects 20 people then how really can it be said to be as important to the site as someone whose contributions daily affect thousands?

Just because not everyone's around anymore doesn't mean their work affected a small group of people. The difference is Civ2ers mostly moved to Off-Topic, CtPers mostly moved to other games and sites (can't speak for SMACers and other communities as I don't know them well enough).

Also, the CtP downloads get almost as much downloads as the Civ3 downloads (per file often even more, but there are less files), and other clues also indicate that an awful lot of people play the CtP games but just don't visit the forums. E.g. I regularly get email from people who've visited Apolyton for years and now have a problem with one of the mods, but don't want to post about it on the forums (god knows why, might have something to do with all the bashing and trolling that went on in the past, but whatever). Apparently a lot of CtP players play the game, but stay clear of the forums. Obviously these people can't impact the HoF, while the (potential) people from the HoF do affect them... (Again, I can only speak for CtP here.)

I don't have a problem with Civ2, Civ3 and OT dominating the HoF, but if only 2 out of almost 60 members are from other communities, something's off...

Personally I respect the people who code and program more than I respect the people who post; but the Apolytoner's Hall of Fame isn't about people who code and post- it's about people who contribute/spend time at the site... and while coding is contributing in a sense- it doesn't have the same sort of exposure that posting does.

Yet, coding takes exponentially more time than posting. A lot of the coders and scenario makers and the like I know (of all the different games this site has to offer) spend sometimes 40-60 hours a week on their works (yes, most of them manage to do this next to their jobs and offline lifes), but are only able to post results once every few months. And some of these people have been doing this for 5-6 years... I doubt there's a single person on this site who spends *that* much time posting on the forums (even Ming probably doesn't manage that, though he can answer that himself best). Yes, coding is only one of at least a dozen ways in which one can contribute to the site, but don't downgrade coders just because they're not present enough. You get the fruits of their labour exactly because they are so absent.

And by the way, we do have Velociryx (a SMACer)... and hopefully Googlie will be on his way soon (so I can start voting for Hydro!)

He's a SMACer by origin, but has posted extensively in just about every single forum of this site, from CtP and Alt Civ to Civ3 and OT.

Veteran's committee: I would've loved to help out but the requirement was that it had to be 1970s posters. There simply aren't enough of them left and those who do stopped contributing actively a long time ago (as in more than posting, usually in the OT). They also all have a Civ2 background; it would be good to have some SMAC, CtP and/or Alt Civ peope as well.
Maybe it has a better chance of succeeding if you allowed 'younger' posters as well, and gave it a little promotion (news item?)

[Ming]

Originally posted by Locutus
I established that myself. However: almost all the on topic posters on the nominee list are Civ2ers/Civ3ers, so although it's an improvement, it still doesn't represent the entire site.

The site is what it is... A Civ Site... while other games are covered, most people came here for Civ. There are non Civers in the HOF... so other people CAN get in.

Again... I see no reason to ignore the majority of the voters and give smaller groups an unfair advantage.

About promotion: the only people who managed to get in based on promotion did so because they were Civ2ers and because a lot of OTers remember them. If I thought it were possible to get WesW or hexagonian or anyone else with a lot of promotion I'd do so, but it's never gonna happen.

With that attitude, you are right... It will never happen.
If you tried hard, who knows... But don't say it isn't going to happen without trying. And your solution is to ignore the votes of other fellow members just so a small group of people can dictate who should be in the HOF. That's just not fair.

SMAC and Alt Civ are perhaps slightly less important, but should certainly not be underestimated. 0 out of almost 60 positions in the HoF constitutes underestimation in my book.

Bummer... nobody has tried to promote any of the worthy candidates, and surprise, none of them have ever made it. There is no rule that states every sub group must automatically get somebody they like in the HOF... and I don't think there should be.

Also, the CtP downloads get almost as much downloads as the Civ3 downloads (per file often even more, but there are less files), and other clues also indicate that an awful lot of people play the CtP games but just don't visit the forums. E.g. I regularly get email from people who've visited Apolyton for years and now have a problem with one of the mods, but don't want to post about it on the forums (god knows why, might have something to do with all the bashing and trolling that went on in the past, but whatever). Apparently a lot of CtP players play the game, but stay clear of the forums. Obviously these people can't impact the HoF, while the (potential) people from the HoF do affect them... (Again, I can only speak for CtP here.)

Good point... if people don't visit the forums, they surely can't vote. But you are still asking for the votes of people that do come to the forums to be ignored or be discounted. Again, explain how this is fair to the active forum users.

I don't have a problem with Civ2, Civ3 and OT dominating the HoF, but if only 2 out of almost 60 members are from other communities, something's off...

Considering this is a Civ Site...

Yet, coding takes exponentially more time than posting. A lot of the coders and scenario makers and the like I know (of all the different games this site has to offer) spend sometimes 40-60 hours a week on their works (yes, most of them manage to do this next to their jobs and offline lifes), but are only able to post results once every few months. And some of these people have been doing this for 5-6 years...

If you are saying that these people are dedicated to the games they love, you are right, and I don't think ANYBODY would argue about that. But the HOF isn't just about coders and scenario makers. And while I respect the amount of time and effort they put into them, many people don't play them or care. Spending time on a game isn't the sole criteria for be considered worthy of the HOF.

I doubt there's a single person on this site who spends *that* much time posting on the forums (even Ming probably doesn't manage that, though he can answer that himself best).

There are a few that probably do spend that much time surfing the site. But there are also many people who give their free time to work on this site. I for one spend far more time than you think... There are others that also do a ton of work and don't get any recognition.
But why should time spent be an issue. One could argue that based on your logic, any minute you spend playing one of the games covered here should be used to determine whether you belong in the HOF... and that's just plain silly

Yes, coding is only one of at least a dozen ways in which one can contribute to the site, but don't downgrade coders just because they're not present enough. You get the fruits of their labour exactly because they are so absent.

Then promote their efforts... don't just give up and claim it's impossible without even trying...

Veteran's committee:

Still a good idea... However, I wouldn't see it's mission as one of just getting non civ people in the HOF. I view it as a way to get ANY deserving old timer in, who has been forgotten since they haven't posted in a long time.
And frankly, since this is a Civ Site, I wouldn't be surprised if many of the people were Civers.

Maybe it has a better chance of succeeding if you allowed 'younger' posters as well, and gave it a little promotion (news item?)

The idea of the veterans committee was to have the guys who have been around through it all help even out any possible ommissions... People who actually knew and remembered some of the old guys who no longer post. Younger posters would have no clue who any of the old timers were.

So one last time... I'm totally against violating the rights of ALL members of this site by having their votes ignored so small groups can dictate who should be in the HOF. Promote, Promote, Promote... get the message out on why somebody is important. Gather strength in your communities and combine your voting power. That's how everybody else gets in, and your candidates shouldn't be treated any differently.

[Locutus]

Originally posted by Ming
The site is what it is... A Civ Site... while other games are covered, most people came here for Civ. There are non Civers in the HOF... so other people CAN get in.

Since when are SMAC and CtP not Civ games?

It's safe to say that almost all the people that registered here between 1998 and late 2001 who came for the game that were hot at the time: CtP and SMAC. In late 2003 and in 2004, most new registrations were for RoN, GalCiv, MoO. Of the more than 3 million posts currently in the forum database, less then a third are in the Civ2 and Civ3 forums/archives. So actually if your defintion of a Civ game is Civ1/2/3 (which a lot of people will disagree with, but let's not go into that here), then an awful lot of people didn't come here for Civ games.

Again... I see no reason to ignore the majority of the voters and give smaller groups an unfair advantage.

Again with the hyperboling. Noone is asking for any votes to be ignored. I (and others) feel they should just be rebalanced a bit.

You can be all high and mighty and say that the current system is fair because all votes are equal, but they aren't: you get more points to vote with than say Trip, because you've been here longer. The people who've been here for 6 years are a small minority compared to those who've only been here 2 or 3 years, yet they get an 'unfair' advantage. If you truely want all votes to be equal, that system should also be abolished.

We're already messing with the 'fairness' of it all because we believe it gives more reliable and representative votes. What's so bad about taking it just one step further to achieve even more representative results?

With that attitude, you are right... It will never happen.

I fully intend to try promotion the next time around (it's too late for that now, everyone already voted). But ask yourself: would you really vote for someone you've never heard of because someone else you barely know says you should? Come on... I mean, I care a lot about honouring all contributors of Apolyton regardless of what games they contributed to, but even I would be very weary of doing so.

Good point... if people don't visit the forums, they surely can't vote. But you are still asking for the votes of people that do come to the forums to be ignored or be discounted. Again, explain how this is fair to the active forum users.

Can you even make sentences without hyperboles? Anyway, I was merely saying that the achievements of the CtP community (and other 'small' communities) were not for just 20 people, like DC was saying (seems hyperboling is contageous around here). Frankly, I find these sort of comments a grave insult for the people who invested so much of their time and energy into our entertainment...

Again, I'm not saying OTF or Civ3 should be 'ignored', but CtP and SMAC are a hell of a lot closer to being 'ignored' in the current system than the OT and Civ3 are in the system I was proposing.

If you are saying that these people are dedicated to the games they love, you are right, and I don't think ANYBODY would argue about that. But the HOF isn't just about coders and scenario makers.

My comment regarding coders had nothing to do with the HoF setup per se, but was merely about DC's claim that coding isn't important because it's not visible. The HoF is not just about investing time, but it's not just about spamming the forums either.

And while I respect the amount of time and effort they put into them, many people don't play them or care.

You should check the Directory some day. Many files have 10,000+ downloads, the total number of downloads in the relatively short history of the Directory is almost 2 million. Not all that many, eh? Just because you don't play or care, doesn't mean noone does.

Both Apolyton and the HoF are not just about creating scenarios and other stuff, but they are not just about the forums either.

There are a few that probably do spend that much time surfing the site. But there are also many people who give their free time to work on this site. I for one spend far more time than you think... There are others that also do a ton of work and don't get any recognition. But why should time spent be an issue.

Isn't the whole point of the HoF exactly to give that kind of recognition? Of course spending time isn't the only way one can make oneself valuable to this site, but it sure is a factor to consider. One has to look at every person individually, but surely, as a rule of thumb, someone who made 20 large and complex scenarios made a more valuable contribution than someone who quickly threw a simple scenario together and submitted it to the database? Surely someone who spent years in the forums discussing countless topics (whether they are about Civ2 strategies, CtP modmaking or politics) made a more valuable contribution than someone who asked a few questions about installing his game and then never came back?

One could argue that based on your logic, any minute you spend playing one of the games covered here should be used to determine whether you belong in the HOF... and that's just plain silly

Hyperboling again...

I view it as a way to get ANY deserving old timer in, who has been forgotten since they haven't posted in a long time.

I keep saying it over and over again: I also want ANYONE to get in. You keep reading everything I say as an attempt to only get 'non-Civ' people in, as if I'm on a crusade to keep OTers and Civ3ers out. Open your eyes, read my posts: I most certainly am NOT, I DO want Civ2/Civ3/OT people to make it in. However, I just also want there to be some room for CtPers and SMACers.

The idea of the veterans committee was to have the guys who have been around through it all help even out any possible ommissions... People who actually knew and remembered some of the old guys who no longer post. Younger posters would have no clue who any of the old timers were.

I agree, but not all of these people are 1970ers and not all of the people being omitted are Civ2ers.

Celestial Dawn is an excellent example of a CtPer who left ages ago, but who is after Velociryx probably THE most deserving person to get into the HoF. Without CD's work, there almost certainly wouldn't have been a CtP2, and even if there had been, it would've looked very differently than it looks now. I readily accept that CD will never be voted in regularly, because even most of the current generation of CtP players never heard of him (or not enough to realise his importance), but a veteran's committee should certainly look into him. I'm not as familiar with the SMAC community, but I think a similar example there can be found there in Tau Ceti.

A veteran's committee that consists of 2002 and 2003 posters obviously wouldn't work, but there's no reason why a few 1999 and maybe even early 2000 posters couldn't be part of it. Especially if those posters have some insight in the history that preceded them (e.g. I never played much Civ2 and only registered in late 1999, yet I recgonise the importance of people like e.g. Stefan Härtel -- I'm not saying I should be on the committee per se, but people with a similar knowledge; DC himself would be an excellent example, even though he registered in mid-2000).

[-Jrabbit]

I'm reminded of Club Groucho -- named for the famous Groucho Marx quote to the effect that he would never belong to any club that would accept him as a member.

[Locutus]

Originally posted by -Jrabbit
I'm reminded of Club Groucho -- named for the famous Groucho Marx quote to the effect that he would never belong to any club that would accept him as a member.

Heh, that quote was actually pretty much my life motto before I came to Apolyton. Interestingly enough, this site made me change that...

[Ben Kenobi]

I say promote.

Find somebody with influence in the community, and try to encourage him to vote for WesW, or other folks you find worthy.

Look at the bump Dr. Strangelove got, when I noticed that he had no votes this round.

If you spent half as much time telling us about WesW, as you are complaining about the votes, then you'd see more votes for him.

[rah]

1. If all the people that download (10,000 downloads) there should be adaquate support to vote in anybody if it was managed/promoted correctly.

2. I played CTP for awhile and even downloaded some of the mods to check them out, since the game had initial promise except for some real annoying things.
So if someone would bother to remind me, I'd probably vote for wes since I used some of the fruits of his labor.

3. I remember all the early complaints that the HOF was a farce since it consisted of owners mods and OTers. Through proper promotion things have changed.

4. I'd serve on a veterans committee if one was founded.

[Bloody Monk]

I agree with the very wise rabbit. That was an excellent reminder!!

This whole thing was supposed to be fun, not an object of endless obsession.

If one wants a different version of something so badly, let him start such a thread. This does not have to be so hard.

(BTW, while this community is primarily made up of geeks and nerds, carrying a torch for unrecognized coders seems a bit over the top. Just saying....)

Monk

[conmcb25]

It looks like congratulations are in order for El Awrence, Spiffor and Solo.

Conrats

[DarkCloud]

I'll be posting the final results soon [within a day or two] (just letting a few people get in a last few votes)

[Mead]

Please add votes for:

Googlie
Buster
Kody


Thanks

Mead