Apolyton Hall of Fame: September 2004

[Grandpa Troll]

well put Locutus

[Heresson]

Where do You get all those nice icons from?
I'm impressed
Actually, this could be the next smiley we could demand

[Grandpa Troll]

Originally posted by Heresson
Where do You get all those nice icons from?
I'm impressed
Actually, this could be the next smiley we could demand

I hit google and other search engines

pictures from all sorts of places..some I have to send to photoshp and resize some to change the file extension of

I have me many many more

Gramps

[Solver]

Oh, I'm back on this thread, and I see that Locutus did a great job of stating exactly my opinions. So I'll just say that I am in complete agreement, and that he puts my opinions better than I would be able to do that myself. And I'm glad to again see us agreeing on something .

[Heresson]

Originally posted by Grandpa Troll




I hit google and other search engines

pictures from all sorts of places..some I have to send to photoshp and resize some to change the file extension of

I have me many many more

Gramps

Do You have any funny Byzantine drawings?
Probably not...
Or funny frogs?

[Ming]

Originally posted by Locutus
Again, I'm not saying anything about people currently in the HoF.

But yes you are... when you say things like...

So if the HoF is organised in such a way that a lot of controversial posters (who incidentally mostly happen to post in the OT) are getting loads of votes while a lot of other (on topic) contributors who are at least as deserving simply aren't being inducted

And then you started talking about how the early candidates are all OTF'ers... simply ignoring the fact that the most of the early candidates were also very active in their respective on topic forums. When I look down the list of the first 20 or so, I see the people that helped make this site bigger, and a real community, when it was just "another civ site" amoung many.
They were VERY active in the on topic forums, and many of them were legends in their respective forums.
You seem to be downplaying their contributions JUST because they are also active in the OTF.

I'm merely saying different people have different opinions about what constitutes a 'contribution to Apolyton'. How often do people post 'I can't believe X isn't in yet', especially in the smaller forums? I'm not the one saying people who disagree with me are arrogant pigs or that their opinions are pathetic whining.

You sure sound a little high and mighty when you imply that we need to change the voting... because the simple fact is, you obviously don't agree with who is getting in, and the one thing you keep coming back to is that OTFers are getting in and people from the small forums aren't... So I'm sorry... you obviously don't think the OTF'ers deserve to be in, simply because they are OTF'ers.

People have been block voting for Googlie and WesW ever since the HoF was moved out of the OTF, yet they aren't in yet. So just because all parts of the site except for Civ3 and OTF are currently too small to be able to make a big enough block to make a difference

Hmmm... the Civ II MP crowd is VERY SMALL and getting even smaller... yet we have had NO problem getting people in. Why can't your little group do the same?
Heck, even the regular Civ II'ers, another small group have been pushing their candidates, and it looks like they will get one in this time.

There was an attempt to block-vote Harlan in as well the last time around, which is why he's so high on the ranking now (for the first time ever). However, the attempt failed the first time and now everyone's moving on to other votes and Harlan's votes will be lost when DC cleans up the HoF again and it's very likely he'll never get in the HoF.

Why is everybody moving to vote for somebody else?
Have people stopped believing that Harlan deserves to get in... or is somebody else winning the popularitiy contest in that area

In the Civ II MP forum, we take the long view, knowing that it takes more than one round to get our less known but important contributers in. We stick to it, and have put every one of our candidates EVENTUALL in the HOF.

Does that mean Harlan never made any contributions to the site worth honouring? Were his Civ2 Mongols, Vikings, WWII and LotR scenarios never that good to begin with? Where his CtP1 units ugly? Was his CtP2 Alexander the Great Scenario overrated? Are his Civ3 map site and resource mods worthless junk?

Straw man time... Of course his stuff isn't worthless junk... that has nothing to do with this discussion. There are indeed tons of people who have contributed greatly to this site who aren't in the HOF.
But in Harlan's case... It seems like his original supporters deserted him... you should be asking yourself why that is, instead of trying to change the rules so the results come out more to your liking

Again, I'm not saying there shouldn't be OTFers and Civ3ers in the HoF. It wouldn't be complete without names like Imran Siddiqui...

There you go again... Imran was one of the biggest on topic posters... and since he was also active in the OTF, you seem to be ignoring the fact that he really shouldn't be considered a Civ3we or OTFer... Does the fact that he now posts a lot in the OTF invalidate all of his on topic contributions?

But can you truly say that a HoF without SMACers or Alt Civers and with only 2 people from 6 years of CtP history is a complete HoF, representative of all of Apolyton of the past 6+ years?

Who ever said that this popularity contest was representative or is even supposed to be... again, it's not even official. The only "credibility" it has is amoung the PEOPLE WHO ACTUALLY VOTE. What, do you want a quota so that each current little group gets a person in?

That's exactly what's wrong with the concept. What you're describing is the concept of a popularity contest and if that's what the HoF is supposed to be, then that would work fine. However, the intent of DC is that the HoF should be more than that (even if it isn't now), which is exactly why I'm offering my suggestions.

Again... you keep saying it should be "more"... which again implies that the OTF'ers are less deserving. You keep saying that you think they are as deserving, yet on the other hand, you admit it's a popularity contest.

So if it doesn't meet your requirements for a good HoF it would indeed get shut down. That's absolutely fine with me. In fact, I agree with you, having a several different kinds of HoFs doesn't do anyone any good and only clutters real discussions. But then don't tell me to start my own HoF when I'm giving suggestions to open this one up to more communities...

You seem to have totally misunderstood... Go ahead and start your own HOF in whatever community you want. Keep track of the winners like DC does... show your respect to those that YOU THINK are worthy. I wouldn't shut it down... You're whole argument seems to be that these small communities can't compete in the big leagues... so set up your own recogonition of the people you feel are worthy.

But yeah, we don't need yet another cross site popularity contest, because we already have one. We already have one that is OPEN to ALL of the communities... Everybody can vote for whoever they want... and like all elections, people campaign for those they think should get in, and the people that get the most votes... the people with the most support... get elected.

But again... let's get serious... please point to where on this site this HOF is listed? Do we have a seperate building like the Sports HOF's have... do we even have a permanent place on the site where these people are listed, and their contributions written in stone for all future members to read... Uhhhh... no. Is the name going to change because the owners already have something else called the HOF, and don't want an official Apolyton thing to be confused with this unoffical HOF... If DC didn't keep posting the threads every few months... the HOF would end... it would disappear...

All I'm saying is that if you want to honor people in you own communities... DO IT. You don't need this unofficial popularity contest to validate thier greatness or contributions. Not being in this popularity contest doesn't mean that you aren't a contributor to the site or should be seen as insult to the small communities.

So I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree...

Obviously... but I would suggest that people don't look at people who post in the OTF as JUST OTF'ers... and try to remember that almost ALL the OTF'ers were on topic posters to begin with... and that maybe you don't remember their contributions because you weren't around, doesn't mean that they didn't contribute ON TOPIC. When I look at the list of OTF'ers, I see a bunch of hard core gamers, not just a bunch of people who also happen to talk about religion, sports, politics in the OTF. These are the people that helped build traffic on this site... these are the people that started the Apolyton Community...

[Solver]

You sure sound a little high and mighty when you imply that we need to change the voting... because the simple fact is, you obviously don't agree with who is getting in, and the one thing you keep coming back to is that OTFers are getting in and people from the small forums aren't... So I'm sorry... you obviously don't think the OTF'ers deserve to be in, simply because they are OTF'ers.

No, he thinks (as I do, too) that the OTFers who are getting in simply have an easier time getting in because more people know them, which does not automatically imply larger contributions. Though I think neither of us has anything in particular against the OTF inductees. But as Locutus already said... there are people from small forums that have contributed a lot, and indeed no amount of promotion or whatever would get others to vote for them. People from Civ3, SMAC or OTF won't be voting for CtP people because they hadn't played CtP and don't care for it, and don't know the CtP contributors. Which makes it so that some great CtP contributors (for whom every other CtPer votes, coincidentally) can't get in.

Hmmm... the Civ II MP crowd is VERY SMALL and getting even smaller... yet we have had NO problem getting people in. Why can't your little group do the same?
Heck, even the regular Civ II'ers, another small group have been pushing their candidates, and it looks like they will get one in this time.

Easy. Many of the active OTF posters now are former Civ2 players who used to play and post on-topic a lot before people like me were even registered. So people that are Civ2 legends (Xin Yu, for example) are typically known names to the current OTF contributors. However, these OTFers haven't, for different reasons, played CtP much/at all. So names of Hexagonian or WesW are an empty sound to them, and these can't get in. Again, everyone in the CtP community votes for these people - which is not enough to get them in.

People get in with a majority vote, after all. The majority are OTF posters. Which does give the OTF posters a relatively larger say in HoF inductees than Civ3/SMAC/CtP players, and that's a fact.

Again... you keep saying it should be "more"... which again implies that the OTF'ers are less deserving. You keep saying that you think they are as deserving, yet on the other hand, you admit it's a popularity contest.

Saying that HoF should be more doesn't imply that OTFers are less deserving. It implies that people who have contributed BUT can not win a simple popularity contest are as deserving as OTFers who can win that popularity contest.

All I'm saying is that if you want to honor people in you own communities... DO IT. You don't need this unofficial popularity contest to validate thier greatness or contributions. Not being in this popularity contest doesn't mean that you aren't a contributor to the site or should be seen as insult to the small communities.

Yes, but we also want site-wide recognition to the contributors from smaller communities. Hexagonian or, say, Immortal Wombat gets all the honor and respect he can get from everyone else in CtP community anyway, but their contributions aren't known that well to representatives of other sections of the site. Whereas it would only be great if people with great contributions to any section were known to people everywhere.

[PLATO]

I don't recall ever seeing many posts here that detail the contributions of a CtP contributor. I don't play CtP but that doesn't mean that I wouldn't vote for someone that the Ctp community felt was a significant contributor. But, no one seems to be advertising their candidate here.

I have played a ton of Civ3 and know a lot of the contributors in that forum (rarely post there due to the vast difference between their talent level and mine); I have played a good bit of GalCiv and know that 'Poly isn't the best venue for tracking what is really happening with that game, but still have some really sharp people there; I have barely dabbled in Civ2 (just enough to give me a MUCH greater respect for those that have mastered that game!), but am aware of some of the strong contributors there.

My point is that one's vote will follow one's trek through this site without an effort to promote an area by its members. OTF is a huge part of this community and that is reflected in the HoF...as it should be. The OtF crowd is diverse enough, however, that they would respond to a well reasoned promotion of a candidate from a small forum. It wouldn't happen overnight, for sure. But, as Ming has said, persistence is a key to fame.

To sum it all up...the hall ain't broke...don't fix it. Posters complaining about the current set up are simply not doing anything to help their cause.

[Solver]

Yes, you are a Civ3 player, as is known. But, would you then really vote for Hexagonian, a contributor to a game you don't play over the contributors to Civ3 that still aren't in?

[Ming]

Originally posted by Solver
Yes, but we also want site-wide recognition to the contributors from smaller communities. Hexagonian or, say, Immortal Wombat gets all the honor and respect he can get from everyone else in CtP community anyway, but their contributions aren't known that well to representatives of other sections of the site. Whereas it would only be great if people with great contributions to any section were known to people everywhere.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

No.. I'm not laughing because I think these people don't deserve it... I'm just laughing at the fact that you bemoan the HOF because people seem to be claiming it's "only" OTF'ers voting, so why should it make a difference if they are in or not. These people are respected in their respective communities... that's what is more important.

The unofficial HOF (which disappears between votes and isn't posted anywhere) is what it is.
It's SITE WIDE... which means that EVERYBODY already has a say. The voters determine who get in... What people seem to be suggesting is that the majority of people aren't voting for the smaller community people, and that the people that are getting in are less deserving, so the rules need to be rigged to change that. The whole argument seems to be that smaller community people don't have a chance to get in (which I totally disagree with, since we do it all the time in Civ II MP) so rule changes need to be made so that the majority of people can be ignored, and that a minority of people can pick who they think are deserving. You can talk all you want about deserving people not getting in... and how some communities aren't be represented, but in the end, all you are saying is that a smaller group of people should be able to force their candidates down everybody elses throat.

Again... a site wide election... let the voters decide...
I still support DC's efforts to have a veterans committee to take a look at people like Harlan... but I guess that didn't go over big, but I did volunteer my time to help.

But I'm totally opposed to ignoring the will of the voters, and not letting all the members of this community pick who ever they want. If you think somebody should be in... promote them.. stick with them from election to election until they do get in. That's what Civ II folks do, and it works!

And I still bristle at all the inderect jabs at the OTFers simply because they are OTFers. Most of them were/are on topic posters as well... and important members of this community.

[PLATO]

Originally posted by Solver
Yes, you are a Civ3 player, as is known. But, would you then really vote for Hexagonian, a contributor to a game you don't play over the contributors to Civ3 that still aren't in?

Yes, since I am familiar with some of his work, I would. A great mind like his should be in. The problem is that many don't realize the kind of contributions that he has made. If they don't know who he is, then how can they vote for him?

I would suggest that someone from each forum take it upon themselves to perhaps have a thread to promote a candidate from that forum...detailing their contributions to the community.

[PLATO]

Originally posted by Ming

I still support DC's efforts to have a veterans committee to take a look at people like Harlan... but I guess that didn't go over big, but I did volunteer my time to help.

I support this idea as well. DC, want to give it another whirl given the discussion going on here?

[Solver]

No.. I'm not laughing because I think these people don't deserve it... I'm just laughing at the fact that you bemoan the HOF because people seem to be claiming it's "only" OTF'ers voting, so why should it make a difference if they are in or not. These people are respected in their respective communities... that's what is more important.

It's SITE WIDE... which means that EVERYBODY already has a say. The voters determine who get in... What people seem to be suggesting is that the majority of people aren't voting for the smaller community people, and that the people that are getting in are less deserving, so the rules need to be rigged to change that.

I never said it's only OTFers voting, what I said is that there are more OTFers. Since the HoF votes are proportional, as in everyone's votes count the same, the off-topicers, totally, do vote more than people of smaller communities.

You can talk all you want about deserving people not getting in... and how some communities aren't be represented, but in the end, all you are saying is that a smaller group of people should be able to force their candidates down everybody elses throat.

The case was more like that a smaller group of people should have better chances to get their candidates in. As Locutus said, there are 2 CtP'ers in the HoF. Faded glory and Locutus... where the former wasn't voted in, but is a posthumous induction, and the latter is known for more than his CtP work, which goes fully to his credit, however. I think it shows pretty well that a smaller community also has smaller abilities to get people elected.

And I still bristle at all the inderect jabs at the OTFers simply because they are OTFers. Most of them were/are on topic posters as well... and important members of this community.

And I don't disagree with that! I believe that most OTFers are indeed important members of the community, and those few whom I don't consider such, are because of what they post, not where they post.

[Solver]

I would suggest that someone from each forum take it upon themselves to perhaps have a thread to promote a candidate from that forum...detailing their contributions to the community.

Fair point. I would love to think that people would vote for people whose contributions they know, although haven't personally experienced due to not reading a particular forum/playing a particular game. I would also surely vote for people like Xin Yu, despite not playing Civ 2.

[Ming]

Originally posted by Solver
The case was more like that a smaller group of people should have better chances to get their candidates in. .

And that's what I'm arguing against. Why should a smaller group of people have better chances to get their candidate in? The HOF of fame is for the entire site... and everybody gets to vote... what can be more fairer that that.