Turkey tries everything to stay out of the EU

[Az]

Well I can, since you're both basing your opposition to subsidies on the fact that people you don't agree with benefit. Leave them out of it, and you'll be fine.

How could you leave them out of it, that would be discrimination.

[Winston]

Leave them out of your argument against subsidies, and your argument against subsidies will be fine.

[Az]

A) I am not against subsidies. I am just saying that they're currently leading to disaster.
B) My argument "against subsidies" is that the subsidies, originally planned to sustain a healthy growth rate, have been subverted by some groups ( by manipulating their structure, and having more money given for the 5th, 6th, and later kids, than for the earlier).
Those groups will lead us to an enviromental, and social disaster.
So instead of sponsoring a healthy growth rate needed for a healthy society, they're sponsoring a timebomb.

[Imran Siddiqui]

Fun thread. If Turkey abolishes torture and becomes more democratic, how is Europe going to keep them out? By saying their 'adultery' law violates rights to privacy? Coming from countries which cameras all over the place to see what people are doing all the time?

It'll just expose the hypocrisy of the EU. Perhaps then Turkey will realize they'll never be accepted so they should do what they want.

[St Leo]

Originally posted by Drogue
It's also a way of having an Atheist union and doing a proper seperation of church and state

Calling the EU an Atheist Union is stupid and counter-productive. EU is secular. Religion is not a crime and that's a good thing -- making it a crime would criminalize thought.

[Az]

Calling the EU an Atheist Union is stupid and counter-productive. EU is secular. Religion is not a crime and that's a good thing -- making it a crime would criminalize thought.

Organized religion is a crime. Individuals can think what they want.

[Winston]

Originally posted by Azazel
A) I am not against subsidies. I am just saying that they're currently leading to disaster.
B) My argument "against subsidies" is that the subsidies, originally planned to sustain a healthy growth rate, have been subverted by some groups ( by manipulating their structure, and having more money given for the 5th, 6th, and later kids, than for the earlier).
Those groups will lead us to an enviromental, and social disaster.
So instead of sponsoring a healthy growth rate needed for a healthy society, they're sponsoring a timebomb.

And that's the line of reasoning which seemed unsettling to me. You'd like to see a situation where only people you agree with would reproduce and benefit from subsidies. Which I find reminiscent of past inhuman policies of purified reproduction.

So we've come full circle.

[St Leo]

Originally posted by Q Cubed
turkey is in asia. therefore, it should not be a part of the european union.

Military is stupid. Therefore, it should not have an Intelligence department.

[Az]

And that's the line of reasoning which seemed unsettling to me. You'd like to see a situation where only people you agree with would reproduce and benefit from subsidies.

What I mind is the fact that the reproduction is uncontrollable. These birthrates are not sustainable economically and enviromentally.

Which I find reminiscent of past inhuman policies of purified reproduction.

So we've come full circle.

[Winston]

Most likely there'll be referendums held on whether allowing Turkey to join would be a good idea, at least in some member states. The people will decide.

Personally I can see a case both for and against. But accepting Turkey only because the alternative would be for them to sink into Islamistic funadamentalism is not the most convincing argument. Surely there are ways of cooperating with Turkey, as has been the case for 30 years, even without granting membership.

[Combat Ingrid]

Winston, the problem for Israel is not just the religious ideas of the 'mass-breeders'. Take a look on a map and you may realise that a population explosion in such a tiny and dry country is not really good. Water shortage is already a problem for many Palestinians. Soon it may become a big problem for everyone there.

Also, when half of the population is below working age, a huge part of the economy will be drained into supporting the children. Some people claim that Israel will end up being a third world country because of this.

[Patroklos]

Exactly,if you look at the risk board Turkey is most definelty in Asia, and since the EU is obviously nothing but a ploy to get Europes 5 extra armies each turn, it is a waste of resources.

[Winston]

Originally posted by Combat Ingrid
Winston, the problem for Israel is not just the religious ideas of the 'mass-breeders'. Take a look on a map and you may realise that a population explosion in such a tiny and dry country is not really good. Water shortage is already a problem for many Palestinians. Soon it may become a big problem for everyone there.

Also, when half of the population is below working age, a huge part of the economy will be drained into supporting the children. Some people claim that Israel will end up being a third world country because of this.

No argument. They should advocate outphasing the subsidies, but they shouldn't base their argument on the fact that people with a different outlook have "too many" children. That's a sickening notion, and that's what I objected to.

Edit: I meant to say outphasing, not outfacing...

[Combat Ingrid]

Then I guess maybe we all agree on the real problem! *group hug*

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Winston


No argument. They should advocate outfacing the subsidies, but they shouldn't base their argument on the fact that people with a different outlook have "too many" children. That's a sickening notion, and that's what I objected to.

winston - if somebody said we need to subsidize child birth in Denmark, to insure that there are enough farmworkers to raise the pigs and milk the cows, and it turned out that the only people taking advantage of the subsidies were Vegans who refuse to work with pigs and cows, could that be considered a reason to not have the subsidy? Thats more or less the situation in Israel, where neither arabs (excluding the Druze and the Beduin) nor Ultraorthdox Jews, serve in the army.