Turkey tries everything to stay out of the EU

[VetLegion]

Btw., does public education in Israel teach kids that they are the chosen people? I always wanted to ask that, and since you people are already threadjacking...

[DinoDoc]

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
And France's ban is dumb even more so since it bans Yarmulkes and crucifixes.

It's to put up the pretense that the law isn't anti-Muslim.

[Imran Siddiqui]

Well I wouldn't be surprised at France banning Yarmulkes .

[Az]

Btw., does public education in Israel teach kids that they are the chosen people? I always wanted to ask that, and since you people are already threadjacking...

Nah.

I went to a state religious school ( that's what "multiculturalism" gets you, dumbasses) , and even then, I don't remember anything like it. I suppose that they said that the bible mentioned it, though.

[DinoDoc]

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
Well I wouldn't be surprised at France banning Yarmulkes .

They seem more concerned with the Arabs getting uppity than the dirty Jews at the moment.

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by DinoDoc
It's to put up the pretense that the law isn't anti-Muslim.

The law is anti- religious displays at school.

It sure is embarassing that only Muslim girls do wear obvious religious displays on a systematic basis. But to make every religion equal before the law, we also ban Jewish funny hats (we call them "Kippa" here, I suppose that's what you call Yarmlukes), and we ban crosses of "exaggerated proportions".

I have heard about banning beards and Sikh turbans, but I don't think it ended up entering the law.

[Ancyrean]

Originally posted by Q Cubed
turkey is in asia. therefore, it should not be a part of the european union.

Turkey is part of virtually every political, social, economic and other institutions of Europe. It has been part and parcel of the European diplomatic and political history for the past 500 years. It has a full customs union with the european union in place for around a decade and has been in membership dialogue with the EU for over 4 decades.

What's more, Turkey's qualification for applying for memebership to the EU is a debate settled long ago. Turkey right now meets EU's political criteria for membership so much so that the European Commission is at a loss to say something about shortcomings.

In light of these, "Turkey is in Asia" is a rather irrelevant basis to argue that it cannot be part of the EU.

[Kuciwalker]

Originally posted by Spiffor
It sure is embarassing that only Muslim girls do wear obvious religious displays on a systematic basis.

I'd say it's quite convenient, actually, wouldn't you?

[Imran Siddiqui]

But to make every religion equal before the law, we also ban Jewish funny hats (we call them "Kippa" here, I suppose that's what you call Yarmlukes), and we ban crosses of "exaggerated proportions".

Ah, I see, so crosses not of "exaggerated proportions" are ok? How... convenient.

[Ancyrean]

Originally posted by Oerdin
Once Turkey's population growth slows down to the rate found in the rest of Europe then the Turkeyaphobes will lose one of their most emotional arguements.

I hope Turkey is eventually admited because I would rather see a secular western leaning Turkey then a religious Arab looking Turkey. It looks like a choice between those two options.

Unfortunately, Europe's hesitation about Turkey runs deeper than just demographics. There's also a historical dimension (in all of politically correct places, Europe).Check out what this honorable member of the EU Commission has to say. . Vienna 1683?? This is not the first time that some European character betrayed his true fears in public.

Turkey's membership issue created an unexpected debate about the definition of the European soul and identity, which distrubs many because they used to project an aura of moral superiority towards the world, and the debate betrays the hitherto unexpressed darker aspects of the European mind.

[Ancyrean]

Originally posted by Winston
Most likely there'll be referendums held on whether allowing Turkey to join would be a good idea, at least in some member states. The people will decide.

Personally I can see a case both for and against. But accepting Turkey only because the alternative would be for them to sink into Islamistic funadamentalism is not the most convincing argument. Surely there are ways of cooperating with Turkey, as has been the case for 30 years, even without granting membership.

Referenda results would almost certainly oppose Turkish membership, as the public in almost all countries in Europe is against it.

[cynical]

Any embarassment caused by headlines around the world ("Danish voters reject Turkish entry into EU 70-30, people dance in the streets after result") should be a low price compared to what's at stake.

[\cynical]

[Ancyrean]

Originally posted by Chemical Ollie

2) There is a large number of things to fix in Turkey. Being Muslim is not really the problem.

Like what? Turkey right now meets the Copenhagen criteria of the EU. Candidates with then-dubious human rights standards (Spain, Portugal after their long fascist regimes, Greece after its junta) were given the opportunity to start membership negotiations (which means there's no return) and in the time (usually years) that passed until they were concluded, countries were monitored for implementation.

Therefore, "there is a large number of things to fix in Turkey" is frankly not an argument not to start negotiations with Turkey, let alone to make a case against Turkish membership.

[Ancyrean]

Originally posted by Chemical Ollie
By the way, why is US so obsessed by getting Turkey into EU? That is a matter of EU and no one else!

Because the Americans have a larger and global perspective. Whereas many in Europe look at the issue in terms of lost agricultural subsidies, dwindling regional funds, immigration and religion, Americans see the enormous long term positive impact of having a Muslim country with such democratic credentials as to qualify to be in EU. It would further make the EU as a far more relevant and effective influence over the Muslim world, giving it infinitely more moral credit to inspire change there.

Frankly, I salute the American foresight here as opposed to parochial European proceduralism (must...resist...saying...racism...arrgh)

[Winston]

Oh, don't resist saying racism. By all means go ahead.

In your last couple of posts you've all but accused the EU of eating Turkish children for breakfast.

One wonders why Turkey is so eager to join a racist union - where according to you, the vast majority of people don't want them.

Oh, and last time I checked, Turks were the same race as the rest of EU, but that is of course a minor point...

[Ancyrean]

Originally posted by Winston
Oh, don't resist saying racism. By all means go ahead.

In your last couple of posts you've all but accused the EU of eating Turkish children for breakfast.

...

Oh, and last time I checked, Turks were the same race as the rest of EU, but that is of course a minor point...

I certainly did not mean such an extreme impression. I was just highlighting the point that most of the resons put forward against Turkish membership do not hold water (like Turkey is in Asia, like there's a lot in Turkey to fix etc).

I was further highlighting the fact that many in Europe put forward reasons other than what the EU is all about against Turkish membership (like it will be the end of Europe, like it's against the spirit of 1683) and that these are high level people. Upon your mentioning the public vote, I pointed to the great reluctance of the people in Europe, and meant their revulsion against Turkey is not only for economic reasons.

If this meant to say Europe has a racist perspective about Turkey, even if that statement is wrong, the point would still stand that Europe definitely gives this impression (to Turkey at least) and that for an average European it's worth stopping for a second and thinking the reasons behind this.

Originally posted by Winston
One wonders why Turkey is so eager to join a racist union - where according to you, the vast majority of people don't want them.

Frankly Winston, that's a quite fair question. Turkey's reasons are quite different than the considerations of Europe.

In Turkey, when the republic was declared 81 years ago, it was such a great challenge to modernise an illiterate, agrarian population with a heavy emphasis on religion, a new kind of thinking was advanced. Against the backdrop of an Imperial Muslim past and the reality of a 99% Muslim population, the general idea you get as you grow up is that yes, we are different and we have a unique history and we left our mark in world, but we would not be abondoning all that if we accept what the others (even if it's from those against whom we have been fighting for centuries) have invented in science and administration. There is a common denomnator of mankind and we have to go there.

That was the spirit and through this spirit the social revolution in Turkey made headway. This of course brought with itself an identity crisis, because alone with this mindset in the Muslim world and despised by the advanced West, there inevitable developed a debate about where we are going.

EU exemplifies the next level of democracy that the founding fathers of the republic envisioned, without EU Turkey could still go it alone in its evolution. But with the EU it would shortcut the process by some decades and answer conclusively the identity question. The economic benefits come later.

This is a rather hasty attempt to write down a complex issue, but I hope it makes some sense.