Turkey tries everything to stay out of the EU

[Winston]

Originally posted by Azazel
Sure, having kids is encouraged. Sadly, some people are more encouraged than others.

So basically, you think that only people you like and agree with should be permitted to reproduce? Now, where have I heard this line of reasoning before.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Azazel

However, isn't this in the best pragmatic interest of the Jewish state, and even encouraged by the state?

Sure, having kids is encouraged. Sadly, some people are more encouraged than others.

"Menachem Friedman, a sociologist in Bar Ilan who has written extensively about the chassidic/Yeshiva community, told me that the fertility rate of the strictly Orthodox population in Israel is 7.5 births per family -- almost three times that of the secularists in Israel, whose fertility rate stands at around 2.7 births. (The secularists in Israel, by the way, are doing much better than American Jews, with approximately 1.6 births per woman.)"

Im not sure of the definition of secularists = probably includes all the Sephardic "masorti" (in the sense of traditional, not Conservative movement) Still thats a pretty high fertility rate compared to most developed countries.

As for the subsidies, the simple answer would be to provide a subsidy for the third, or even fourth child, and none beyond that, since few secular Jews have more than four children (?) and few orthodox Jews or Arabs have that few. Dont think the political will is there yet, though.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Winston


So basically, you think that only people you like and agree with should be permitted to reproduce? Now, where have I heard this before...

Everyone should be permitted to reproduce. The question is, if the state is subsidizing reproduction, for the sake of strategic safety, and the subsidy is mainly encouraging reproduction of people who A. Oppose the states existence (many Israeli Arabs) or B. Wont lift a finger to defend the state (some ultraorthodox Jews) or C. Endanger the state by their nationalist extremism (certain Orthodox settlers) does it still make sense to have such a subsidy?

[Winston]

lotm,

I was just refering to Az' qualifier of "sad" when it comes to certain people that he's obviously in disagreement with having kids, re. the previous posts in this thread.

I found it a bit unsettling, that's all. You don't get to pick and choose among other people's view on life and the world. Otherwise you could just as easily justify IQ tests and the like among prospective parents.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Winston
lotm,

I was just refering to Az' qualifier of "sad" when it comes to certain people that he's obviously in disagreement with having kids, re. the previous posts in this thread.

I cant speak for him, but i rather doubt that hes sad that arabs and orthodox jews are having kids. I suspect hes sad at the relative demographic decline of secular Jews, and that state policy is inadvertently encouraging this.

[Az]

7.5?!!!!

well, I see a very intersting war going on between some 20,000,000 palestinians, and some 15,000,000 jews over here, around 2070.....

[Winston]

Originally posted by lord of the mark
I cant speak for him, but i rather doubt that hes sad that arabs and orthodox jews are having kids. I suspect hes sad at the relative demographic decline of secular Jews, and that state policy is inadvertently encouraging this.

Well, I'm sad that conservative people aren't significantly out-reproducing leftists. The world would be so much better off if people I disagree with stopped reproducing altogether.

[Az]

I cant speak for him, but i rather doubt that hes sad that arabs and orthodox jews are having kids. I suspect hes sad at the relative demographic decline of secular Jews, and that state policy is inadvertently encouraging this.

I am sad that arabs and orthodox jews are having so many kids that life here in the future will be unbearable...

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Winston
Well, I'm sad that conservative people aren't significantly out-reprodrucing leftists. The world would be so much better off if people I disagree with stopped reproducing altogether.

Is your govt subsidizing reproduction? Do Danish leftists call for the elimination of the Danish state, or alternatively consider the Danish state a stepping stone to the Messianic age, to be tossed aside like an old ladder when the Messiah arrives?

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Azazel
7.5?!!!!

well, I see a very intersting war going on between some 20,000,000 palestinians, and some 15,000,000 jews over here, around 2070.....

Az - in say, 1910 the Orthodox in Eastern Europe undoubtedly had a much higher Fertility rate than the secular Jews - yet the secular jews grew past the O. Cause the seculars ATTRACTED the children of the O to become seculars. Harder now, as O has learned a lot of hard lessons. Are the seculars still able to come up with an attractive culture?

[Winston]

The government subsidizes child families by around $2.5 billions a year, in this country of ca. 5 mio people. $2,000+ per child per year, from birth until they're 18.

IMO, the question of what specific policies are supported by people with high birth rates is none of other people's business. Otherwise you're basically supporting selective reproduction only by people you like and agree with. Which has been done before in history in various, not-so-charming ways, I dare say.

[Dinner]

Once Turkey's population growth slows down to the rate found in the rest of Europe then the Turkeyaphobes will lose one of their most emotional arguements.

I hope Turkey is eventually admited because I would rather see a secular western leaning Turkey then a religious Arab looking Turkey. It looks like a choice between those two options.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Winston
.

IMO, the question of what specific policies are supported by people with high birth rates is none of other people's business. Otherwise you're basically supporting selective reproduction only by people you like and agree with. Which has been done before in history in various, not-so-charming ways, I dare say.

I cant see equating the questioning of a policy of subsidizing child birth with supporting a policy of discrimination among groups.

[Winston]

Originally posted by lord of the mark


I cant see equating the questioning of a policy of subsidizing child birth with supporting a policy of discrimination among groups.

Well I can, since you're both basing your opposition to subsidies on the fact that people you don't agree with benefit. Leave them out of it, and you'll be fine.

[Az]

Az - in say, 1910 the Orthodox in Eastern Europe undoubtedly had a much higher Fertility rate than the secular Jews - yet the secular jews grew past the O. Cause the seculars ATTRACTED the children of the O to become seculars. Harder now, as O has learned a lot of hard lessons. Are the seculars still able to come up with an attractive culture?

They're now attracting the young and empoverished, sponsored by the state. Man, I feel like crying....