Turkey tries everything to stay out of the EU

[Ancyrean]

Europeans could gain way more from the benefits of letting Turkey in than Turks will benefit from being in the European Union.

The Turks can do alot of real effective diplomacy, not only to the Arab and Muslim world, but also, at least in the economic world, with Russia and other former Soviet nations.

These kinds of special, credible relationships are currently not available to Eurocoms. Having Turkey on your side is a huge bridge to many non Western places. Iran is one example.

I totally agree. In fact many pacifist Europeans are afraid that with Turkey in, Europe will have to drop its distant soft power approach to foreign policy now that it will be bordering some of world's hottest trouble spots and two rogue states (with Iraq gone, it's only Syria and Iran on our borders).

Plus access to Turkish women what the hell is wrong with you guys already???

Ted Striker:

[Ancyrean]

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui

if you're going to invite countries not in europe into the european union, it ceases to become a european union. therefore, either keep turkey out of the european union, or change the name of the european union to something else.

Turkey has historically been intertwined with Europe, especially in terms of diplomatic circles. They've formed part of many alliances with European powers in wars dealing with European territory. I'd also argue that the greatest population centers in Turkey are culturally European. Istanbul, for example, can hardly be considered an Asian city in its culture. And most of coastal Turkish cities were considered part of the Greek culture in ancient times.

Good point, Imran. An additional sidenote here, the economic center of Turkey is Eastern Thrace (Turkey's European territory) and its immediate hinterland, for example with up to 40% of the taxes collected from there.

Besides, if one is so fundamentally concerned about geographical criteria, what about Cyprus, is it in Europe geographically? I guess not

[Lonestar]

Turkey should be in the EU if it so desires. Engaging a secular, successful Muslim with the west on a permanent basis (NATO noth withstanding) can only be good.

[VetLegion]

Originally posted by Ancyrean
In fact, Greece is one of the staunchest supporters of Turkish membership these days. That support actually is the hallmark of the thaw of tensions

It is certainly paraded as a big change in policy, but in my opinion it is just that the Greeks have realized that there is no use of them opposing Turkey's membership anymore, since there is plenty of opposition in the rest of Europe (including perhaps some EC commissioners as recent examples show, but they may just be in the "bad cop" role).

If push came to shove, I'm pretty sure Greece would pull a De Gaulle on Turkey (he blocked British entry for quite some time).

On a side note, Turkey will sign the European Constitution along with Bulgaria and Romania (not sure about Croatia).

I figure that once it is ratified in all EU countries, accepting the Constitution becomes a condition for membership. So, sure, Croatia will eventually accept it too. Or did you mean something else by "sign"? A symbolic thing, like "we participated in the creation of this"? In that case I'd say that Croatia probably didn't.

On referenda, I'd think nobody will put Turkey's membership to public vote as it was not done for any other member's entry, unless of course Europe decides to make a showcase of double standards

There were some referendums about expansion, for example in Ireland (passed from second attempt AFAIR). Since it is quite likely Turkey will be the only candidate at the time of another expansion referendum, it's clear what will the referendum be about.

I think right now the EU is more not ready for Turkey than Turkey is for the EU. In early october the EU Commission will issue a report on Turkish readiness to start negotiations, and Turkey's readiness is expected to be certified in that report.

The thing that bothers me (and probably irritates Turkey at the moment) is that almost every issue that EU requests from some candidate country is already allowed as "an exception" for some existing member, or being silently broken by an existing member.

I am quite unhappy for example, with the way EU is *****ing about minority rights in my country (Croatia), while letting Greeks, Latvians (or was it Lithuanians) get away with a lot.

Or *****ing about deficits, privatisations and so on, while Germany and France get away with whatever. Hundreds of examples like that.

I feel that the criteria put in front of perspective candidates are not very strict, and that decisions are made elswhere and that they don't depend on theoretical requirements very heavily. This criteria can mostly be ignored if there is strong political will to admit a country to membership, or can be insisted on forever and made impossible to fullfill if they wish the opposite.

I also know that many important issues can be made to look good on the outside, while underlaying problems remain unsolved.

So, in conclusion, I support Turkey's membership in the EU, but I think zero of bureaucratic statements that claim that she is ready to start the talks, or has successfully solved this issue ot that. Propaganda

I want EU to put it's full weight into helping Turkey with reforms. I'd much rather see the pressure for these reforms come from within though, but if there's no other way...

The statistics about economic situation and amount of progressive legislation passed won't impress me. I'd like to stop reading in the papers that cousins have gone to a hospital to kill a raped female, not that the sentence for that is now enlarged.

Btw., in it's best tradition, EU will probably eventually turn a blind eye to some of Turkey's problems. I do support that.

[Ancyrean]

Originally posted by VetLegion

Originally posted by Ancyrean
In fact, Greece is one of the staunchest supporters of Turkish membership these days. That support actually is the hallmark of the thaw of tensions

It is certainly paraded as a big change in policy, but in my opinion it is just that the Greeks have realized that there is no use of them opposing Turkey's membership anymore, since there is plenty of opposition in the rest of Europe (including perhaps some EC commissioners as recent examples show, but they may just be in the "bad cop" role).

If push came to shove, I'm pretty sure Greece would pull a De Gaulle on Turkey (he blocked British entry for quite some time).

I would concede there's such a possibility. But the encouraging sign is that many issues that were once taboo are ok now in Greece (and to an extent in Turkey). For example, the very act of negotiating with Turkey about the Aegean sea was thought to be defeatist and almost as an act of betrayal in Greece. "Turks are entitled to nothing and it's the Turks' cunning to force us to sit down at the table to demand 100 and get the 1 they would otherwise not get" would accurately describe the general diplomatic and public approach to that issue. Now, diplomats from the two countries are meeting regularly and had made quite a headway, as the leaks from those involved reveal.

Also, on Cyprus, Greece definitely is not showing the blind and unconditionally devoted support it gived to Greek Cypriots before. They did not, for example, made a hell about how the Greek Cypriots were "right" to reject the UN solution, but gave out a rather muted and almost noninterventionist comment about it. The new attitude also survived a government change in Greece.

So I'm more inclined to believe that Greece is sincere about its new approach to Turkey, and that a psychological threshold is crossed. Of course we can't prove that my assessment of this issue is all accurate, but in all honesty I hope you are wrong on this one

[Ancyrean]

Originally posted by VetLegion

On a side note, Turkey will sign the European Constitution along with Bulgaria and Romania (not sure about Croatia).

I figure that once it is ratified in all EU countries, accepting the Constitution becomes a condition for membership. So, sure, Croatia will eventually accept it too. Or did you mean something else by "sign"? A symbolic thing, like "we participated in the creation of this"? In that case I'd say that Croatia probably didn't.

Oh, what I meant was I remember reading from newspapers that Turkey will be signing the EU constitution alongside with other candidates Bulgaria and Romania, simultaneously with the 25 actual members of the union (I guess within a few months). I couldn't remember though, if Croatia is to sign it too. But now that you guys are an official candidate (AFAIK), you should be entitled to sign it

Originally posted by VetLegion
There were some referendums about expansion, for example in Ireland (passed from second attempt AFAIR). Since it is quite likely Turkey will be the only candidate at the time of another expansion referendum, it's clear what will the referendum be about.

What I meant was a referandum in each or some of 25 existing members on Turkey's membership. Was there a referandum in the member countries of the EC on Ireland's entry? Or was there referenda in any existing member country on any country's incoming membership? AFAIK there was none?

Originally posted by VetLegion
The thing that bothers me (and probably irritates Turkey at the moment) is that almost every issue that EU requests from some candidate country is already allowed as "an exception" for some existing member, or being silently broken by an existing member.

I am quite unhappy for example, with the way EU is *****ing about minority rights in my country (Croatia), while letting Greeks, Latvians (or was it Lithuanians) get away with a lot.

Or *****ing about deficits, privatisations and so on, while Germany and France get away with whatever. Hundreds of examples like that.

Yeah, Europe is not totally consistent on these matters and many Europeans are also embarrassed by this, some people blame it on EU not being democratic enough, some blame it on lack of a more centralised structure, some to too centralised a structure... I don't know what the real reason is, but I still give a to this.

[Ancyrean]

Originally posted by VetLegion
So, in conclusion, I support Turkey's membership in the EU, but I think zero of bureaucratic statements that claim that she is ready to start the talks, or has successfully solved this issue ot that. Propaganda

I want EU to put it's full weight into helping Turkey with reforms. I'd much rather see the pressure for these reforms come from within though, but if there's no other way...

You might be right about the propoganda, so I guess we'll have to wait for first the Commission's report and then the EU summit in December when they will officially decide on whether to start negotiations or not...

On the pressure for change, I guess most of the change that took place in Turkey was possible due to EU's pressure and the pacifying effect of the prospects of membership...I frankly don't so much believe in politicians when they say they'd have done all the reforms without EU anyway...So the EU already caused so much positive change in Turkey, and for that I give a

Originally posted by VetLegion
The statistics about economic situation and amount of progressive legislation passed won't impress me. I'd like to stop reading in the papers that cousins have gone to a hospital to kill a raped female, not that the sentence for that is now enlarged.

Fortunately, honour killings are not so much endemic, but it still happens...They already increased penalties for such killings, but if real change is to come, it can only come slowly, over time...If I can make a rough analogy, think about Spain before its membership and think about it now, it's the rising star of Europe

[Heresson]

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui

They've formed part of many alliances with European powers in wars dealing with European territory.

Before the decline of Turkish powers:
Turkey wants to conquer Europe with Austria as the first step, France eagerly collaborates, Russia plans revenge, Poland tries to make friends with everyone.
After the decline of Turkish power:
Russia wants to conquer Turkey, all other Europeans try to stop it. Turkey was not an equal side in this conflict, it was subject of it

I'd also argue that the greatest population centers in Turkey are culturally European. Istanbul, for example, can hardly be considered an Asian city in its culture. And most of coastal Turkish cities were considered part of the Greek culture in ancient times. [/QUOTE]

So You are proving that Turkish nation is part of Europe because Greeks once lived on its territory and left some traces?

Still, though I'm hesitant, I guess Turkey should be included.

[Q Classic]

obviously, all of you are wrong about turkey being in europe. mass hysteria or some such.

personally, it doesn't matter too much for me, i just don't see what the point is in calling it EU if turkey's in it.

[Heresson]

There were three Roman provinces that gave names to continents:
Africa - modern Tunisia
Asia - western Turkey
and Europe province is in Tutkey too. It's the part of Thrace over Marmara sea shores

[Sikander]

Originally posted by Sir Ralph
I demand, that Turkey joins the EU immediately!

And then, after we got a common border, we culture-flip Iraq!

God I love Civ 2!

[Heresson]

Die, You civ3 heretic, die!
(civ2 inquisition makes an unsuspected raid)

[Sikander]

Originally posted by Patroklos
Exactly,if you look at the risk board Turkey is most definelty in Asia, and since the EU is obviously nothing but a ploy to get Europes 5 extra armies each turn, it is a waste of resources.

Not necessarily. Middle East gives access to East Africa and shortens borders considerably should the EU decide to recolonize Africa.

[Ancyrean]

Flash news: The Turkish government decided to abondon the adultery clause in the new set of changes in penal code!

The government reached a compromise with the main opposition, the social democrats, and they won't bring it up during the parliament session at all, the rest of the reform bill (up to 346 changes) will be adopted by both parties unanimously

I guess it's largely the pressure from the EU and also the public reaction that brought about this change of course.

[BeBMan]

Good