Free Speech on Campus

[Giancarlo]

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi


Nope. We just show people what abortion really does, which is pretty gruesome.

I know what it is really like as I have seen such photos, so that is why I'm against it (even though I do make concessions in the cases of rape and incest).

[Ben Kenobi]

I know what it is really like as I have seen such photos,

Sadly, the folks on our campus want to prevent others from seeing the same.

[Giancarlo]

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi


Sadly, the folks on our campus want to prevent others from seeing the same.

Well they probably scream about freedom, yet they don't allow others to have their freedom. They're just hypocrites.

[joncha]

Billboard-sized full colour photos of aborted fetuses and imagery comparing women who have abortions and abortion providers to Nazis is not free speech, BK. And last I checked, neither you nor any of your buddies got sued or kicked out of university.

[Ben Kenobi]

And last I checked, neither you nor any of your buddies got sued or kicked out of university.

You got sued because you decided to shred Stephanie's display.

Violence has no place on campus, and I'm glad the university decided to impose some academic sanctions.

For shredding the display, all you got was 8 months suspension, four of which occurred during the summer, plus a fine of 5k divided amongst the 3 of you.

[Ben Kenobi]

Billboard-sized full colour photos of aborted fetuses and imagery comparing women who have abortions and abortion providers to Nazis is not free speech,

How large was the display that you trashed?

[Ben Kenobi]

http://www.lifesite.net/ldn/1999/dec/99121002.html

And here's the evidence.

Scroll down to find the video.

[Giancarlo]

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi


You got sued because you decided to shred Stephanie's display.

Violence has no place on campus, and I'm glad the university decided to impose some academic sanctions.

For shredding the display, all you got was 8 months suspension, four of which occurred during the summer, plus a fine of 5k divided amongst the 3 of you.

Wait a minute.. I'm a bit confused.. who did what?

Edit: Oh I see that article and video you posted.

Seems like freedom of speech is only good for the left wing, according to the left leaning mind.

[Ben Kenobi]

Joncha, was one of the three people involved in an incident out at UBC in 1999.

The three people involved were Leslie Washington, Erin Kaiser and Jon Chandler.

Erin Kaiser was the ringleader, and the other two followed.

You can find an account of the destruction of the display here.

http://www.lifesite.net/ldn/2003/jan/030113.html

UBC STUDENT SOCIETY ABSOLVES ITSELF OF PRO-ABORTION VANDALISM

VANCOUVER, January 13, 2003 (LifeSiteNews.com) - UBC's Alma Mater Society (AMS) has withdrawn its previous admission of responsibility in the wanton destruction of a pro-life display by one of the AMS's own councillors.

Lawyer Malcolm Maclean noted that the student society did not "endorse" the vandalism of the AMS Lifeline Club's booth on Nov. 23, 1999. "Our position is that the AMS is in no way liable for the attack on this display," the lawyer representing the AMS told B.C. Supreme Court Justice Bruce Cohen, who reserved judgment after hearing final arguments this week.

Lifeline launched a legal bid two years ago to bring to account Erin Kaiser, Jon Chandler and Lesley Washington, who tore down and trampled the display. Their anti-free speech frenzy was recorded on videotape and played to the courtroom. The university eventually "disciplined" the student leaders with only a temporary suspension.

[joncha]

Didn't want to fight this out on Poly (and I still don't), but since you brought it up:

1. tearing down some giant-sized posters is not "violence" and they were giant (though not as big as you would have liked, I'm sure)

2. they were invasive (right in front of the bus loop without prior notice? c'mon!)

3. and however cutting those insults you have been to your (no doubt fragile) ego, it does not compare with having your academic career essentially ended

Now, we've been able to peacefully coexist on these boards for quite some time (and managed along the way, shockingly, to have a few friendly conversations), so let's not get ourselves into a flame-war, ok?

EDIT: the "ring-leader" was a young jewish woman who had recently had an abortion, and objected to being compared to a Nazi for doing so.

[Ben Kenobi]

1. tearing down some giant-sized posters is not "violence" and they were giant (though not as big as you would have liked, I'm sure)

Suppose we chose to stand by the display to prevent you from attacking it?

It's still violence, and should the shoe be on the other foot, we would have been expelled from UBC forever.

2. they were invasive (right in front of the bus loop without prior notice? c'mon!)

So all protests must have prior notice before they are conducted?

Secondly, the reason that the display was held in that manner is because Stephanie tried to negotiate with the university to book a space. Having her request declined, she chose to resort to these methods. No warning? You guys were so scared about CBR coming onto campus.

3. and however cutting those insults you have been to your (no doubt fragile) ego, it does not compare with having your academic career essentially ended

What permanent stain on your academic record? The judge declined to add that on because he felt that you should be punished, but not in such a way that you would not be able to persue an academic career.

8 months suspension is different from a permanent black mark on your record.

the "ring-leader" was a young jewish woman who had recently had an abortion, and objected to being compared to a Nazi for doing so.

Just because a protest angers you, does not make you justified to rip apart the protest. Some of your counterprotests anger me, and your tactics have done so in the past, so much so that I have had to withdraw myself periodically from the protest.

Yet I do not have the right to try to hurt you or to rip up your signs just because I do not like the message.

Now, we've been able to peacefully coexist on these boards for quite some time (and managed along the way, shockingly, to have a few friendly conversations), so let's not get ourselves into a flame-war, ok?

I'm trying to stick to the facts, and just the facts.

[Ben Kenobi]

Now Jon, I have no intent to take this any further, okay?

I think you have gone far in the time since that incident 5 years ago, and that the past is the past.

I'm not asking you to agree with the display, just to respect that they have just as much right to be on campus, to present their side of the story, as you do for yours.

[Giancarlo]

What you did, Joncha, was violate the rights of others. Even if I didn't agree with them, I would not vandalize their displays. If you had a problem with it you could of gone through proper channels (if there were really questionable issues about the displays you could of talked with proper adminstration). This is the first I heard of it.

[joncha]

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi
Now Jon, I have no intent to take this any further, okay?

I think you have gone far in the time since that incident 5 years ago, and that the past is the past.

I'm not asking you to agree with the display, just to respect that they have just as much right to be on campus, to present their side of the story, as you do for yours.

Well that's nice of you to say now, Sean Ollech, vice-president of UBC Lifeline, after you decided "out" me as a crazed, free-speech-hating, violent criminal.

As I told you when we met in person (and had a nice chat about it and other things, I thought), if I had the chance to live it over again, I'd do the exact same thing.

Tearing down posters is not violence. I've had plenty of my own posters torn down over the years, often times in front of my face. Nor is it violence to say that maybe, had you tried to physically prevent us (which you didn't), we might have tried to possibly perhaps do something that might have been possibly physically violent. Maybe. Pretty weak argument.

You folks should have put your huge, graphic images in a room somewhere where students could go and look at them if they wanted to. Our side would have picketed to be sure, but we wouldn't have prevented anyone from seeing them. Instead you tried to stuff it down everyone's throats, and you received an equivalent response, in my opinion.

Now... my rant goes on for several more paragraphs, but let's cut this short now that we've traded a few salvos. I'd be more than happy to debate the finer points of a very personal public battle that happened five years ago over PMs, but I'd like to keep this forum a comfortable environment for me to post in.

[Giancarlo]

You are a criminal when it comes to character. For several reasons: You violated the freedom of speech of a group of people. If you have a problem with posters, go through the proper channels to have a complaint made. What you did was none less then blatantly immature. You know who torn down posters and destroyed material of the other side? Hitler and the Nazis. You really should of thought twice before doing it. If it was approved, and you had a problem you should of gone through the proper channels.

Now, Joncha, I know you are the far most immature person I have ever met here. If I had a problem, I would of done a campaign to get it down.