Did Hugo Chavez really rock the righties?

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by joncha
These is exit polls, not opinion polls. People routinely lie about who they voted for when leaving the ballot box. In many cases, it's a simple case of prudent self-preservation to do so.

There were no exit polls. It was opinion polls that differed with the results. I wonder how many polsters canvassed the bario to see how the majority of Venezuelans felt. :rolleyeys:

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi
So what would be the motivation for the massive anti-Chavez vote in the polls before the election?

The media in Venezuela hates Chavez and regularly lies about him.

[Ben Kenobi]

What seriours questions? You mean those raised by the LOSERS? The election was certafied fair by several international agencies. The right-wingers lost. Get over it already.

Well then why haven't the Democrats came to accept the victory of Bush?

[Nubclear]

BK has 3 choices:
-Chavez won fairly or
-Bush lost
-He's playing sophist

Choose!

[molly bloom]

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi


So what would be the motivation for the massive anti-Chavez vote in the polls before the election?

Gosh, I'm not sure.


What was the motivation of the pollsters?

Who was conducting the poll, and for whom?


What questions did they ask, and of whom?

And who was paying for the poll ?


Many middle class and upper middle class Chileans were quite happy to see Allende overthrown and replaced with an unelected military ditatorship, and spookily enough, a similar thing has occurred in Venezuela's history:


'Gen. Perez Jimenez, who was born in the western state of Tachira, participated in a military coup that ousted the dictatorship of Gen. Isaias Medina Angarita in 1945, helping to install the democratic government of President Romulo Gallegos. But in 1948, he led a coup that ousted Gallegos.

A junta of three military officers ruled Venezuela until 1952, when Gen. Perez Jimenez declared himself president. His regime was backed by a security force that silenced opposition leaders by jailing and torturing them.

During his term, he also created grandiose public works, including a highway that connects Caracas to the northern coast, burrowing through the mountains that
separate the city from the Caribbean.

.... some Venezuelans still admire Gen. Perez Jimenez's regime for its efficiency. '


Presumably the ones getting all weepy eyed over his efficiency and grand projects weren't the ones killed and tortured.


Other Venezuelans condemn the regime as a period of political repression.

"We cannot forget what the dictatorship of Marcos Perez Jimenez meant for Venezuela. The crimes he committed and the step back our country took despite some important material projects," said former president Carlos Andrez Perez. '

http://www.latinamericanstudies.org/venezuela/perez-jimenez-obituary.htm

Class and ethnicity in Venezuela:

'Myth 2 -- According to the rightwing analysts the referendum was based on the issue of Chavez ‘popularity’, ‘personality’, charisma and ‘autocratic’ style.

In reality the referendum was based on class/race divisions. Non-opposition trade union leaders indicated that over 85% of the working class and working poor voted for Chavez, while preliminary reports on voting in affluent neighborhoods and circumscriptions showed just the reverse over 80% voting for the referendum.

A similar process or class/race polarization was evident in the extraordinary turnout and vote among poor Afro-Venezuelans: The higher the turnout, the higher the vote for Chavez, as an unprecedented 71% of the electorate voted. Clearly Chavez was successful in linking social welfare programs, class allegiances to electoral behavior.

In Venezuela the Right controlled 90% of the major television networks and print media and most of the major radio stations. Yet the referendum was crushed by an 18% margin (59% to 41%).'

http://www.vheadline.com/readnews.asp?id=22654

What happened in Chile:

'They also show the immediate U.S. support for Gen. Augusto Pinochet, who ousted Allende on Sep 11 1973, inciduing orders to the Central Intelligence Agency (CIA) to "assist the junta in gaining a more positive image, both at home and abroad."

The documents acknowledge the importance of the secret U.S. role in preparing the climate for the military coup. In one report, the agency notes that its 1.5 million-dollar subsidy and advice to the anti-Allende 'El Mercurio' newspaper "played a significant role in setting the stage for the military coup." '

http://www.hartford-hwp.com/archives/42a/133.html

What was it Hearst is meant to have said prior to the Spanish American War?

"You furnish the pictures, and I'll furnish the war!"

In Chavez and Venezuela's current situation, for pictures read 'opinions' or 'motivations' and for 'war' read 'coup'.

[JCG]

[SIZE=1]
Many middle class and upper middle class Chileans were quite happy to see Allende overthrown and replaced with an unelected military ditatorship, and spookily enough, a similar thing has occurred in Venezuela's history:
....
Other Venezuelans condemn the regime as a period of political repression.

"We cannot forget what the dictatorship of Marcos Perez Jimenez meant for Venezuela. The crimes he committed and the step back our country took despite some important material projects," said former president Carlos Andrez Perez. '

True, but Perez Jimenez, together with Juan Vicente Gómez (was dictator from 1908 to 1935), are usually well regarded by Venezuelan history books, even in the Chavez era you'd be hard-pressed to find many (other than academics or intellectuals) that would condemn both of them.

Curiously enough, the fact that coups tend to become acceptable in Venezuela cuts both ways... Colonel Chavez himself tried to coup Carlos Andres Perez (see his little quote up there?) in 1992, who was unpopular and accused of corruption but still legally and democratically elected. Chavez was later pardoned but seems to be mostly unrepentant regarding that action (which was admittedly popular in its own right but still illegal).

Heck, Bolivar himself, deified as he is as a symbol by Venezuelans and Chavists in particular (not to mention northern latin americans in general), also led a coup against his own legal government in 1828 (another popular but illegal action), named himself dictator and then began implementing conservative measures, even making deals with the Church and landowning elites. Yet he's remembered as a leftwing/nationalist figure (though southern latin americans tend to be more critical of him).

All pretty depressing stuff, when you think of it.

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi
Well then why haven't the Democrats came to accept the victory of Bush?

Because there is actual evidence of massive fraud in Florida. Furthermore, a recount by the major newspapers concluded that under every recount scenario but the original one asked for by the Gore team, Gore won Florida.

[Ben Kenobi]

Because there is actual evidence of massive fraud in Florida. Furthermore, a recount by the major newspapers concluded that under every recount scenario but the original one asked for by the Gore team, Gore won Florida.

So why not permit Chavez to come under the same scrutiny as Bush? The papers are saying the same thing here, that the numbers don't add up.

Yet somehow the papers in Venezuela shouldn't be able to critique Chavez like the papers here do Bush.

Some freedom of the press!

[Ben Kenobi]

but the original one asked for by the Gore team,

See, a man this stupid doesn't deserve to be president.

[Giancarlo]

If Venezuela wants to keep their idiot leader fine. The man collapsed the economy single handedly and yet some people here praise Chavez. The election was rigged, and messed up. If Venezuelans were as smart as Colombians they would be better off. What Venezuela needs is an Alvaro Uribe.

[Ben Kenobi]

BK has 3 choices:
-Chavez won fairly or
-Bush lost
-He's playing sophist

All I'm saying is that if you believe Chavez won, that Bush wins fairly as well.

It says nothing about those who believe Chavez lost, that Bush lost too.

Bush faced much more scrutiny than Chavez and although the election was close, he satisfied the requests of his opposition.

Chavez has done no such thing. Rather than acknowledging the concerns of the opposition, he sweeps them under the rug.

[Ben Kenobi]

What was the motivation of the pollsters?

Who was conducting the poll, and for whom?

What questions did they ask, and of whom?

And who was paying for the poll ?

All very good questions. What are the answers?

[molly bloom]

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi


All very good questions. What are the answers?

Information you should be providing, since you're the one placing such great store in these polls.


By the way, is there a link to these polls that you're extolling, or are we meant to be taking your word on them ?

[Ted Striker]

Pinochet references are so

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi
All I'm saying is that if you believe Chavez won, that Bush wins fairly as well.

They're two different situations. The Florida election was admittedly marred by the State of Florida. Venezuela doesn't admit they screwed up the election.