Attackers seize Russian school

[Solver]

There's a big problem with that tactic being employed in the theatre situation. Since the troops only stormed in on the fourth, IIRC, day of the standoff, and people have only had water all that time, the gas killed many hostages. The gas that was used normally incapacitates people for a period of time, but in combination with the prolonged hunger, it killed.

Also, the "release them and we give you food" can't work. Their demands will be more like "get us food or we kill a hostage each five minutes".

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by pchang
There appear to be 2 types of terrorists in the world:

1) Those who want their own sovereign state.

2) Those who want to impose their view/religion/leadership on the rest of the world.

In many cases, the type 1 terrorists are really just type 2 terrorists starting with their first demand.

It may be possible to negotiate with the type 1 terrorists if one is willing to hand over the fate of the people who will be incorporated into their sovereign state to those terrorists. Such a thing is easier to do the farther away one is from those terrorists.

For type 2 terrorists, there are only 3 choices:
1) Die.
2) Convert to follow them.
3) Kill them before they kill us.

Chechnya had full autonomy after the first Chechen rebellion. Islamist extremists than attacked Dagestan, a heavily muslim area of Russia that was content with the political status quo.

Im not sure that the distinction among groups is as clear as you make it out. First AQs own goals are somewhat fuzzier than a global Islamic state - their explicit call is only for an Islamic state in Islamic lands (though this includes BOTH predominantly muslim areas in non-muslim states like the southern Phillipines and Chechnya - AND non-muslim areas in muslim states - like the southern sudan and Bali - and ALSO includes India and Israel) they seem to expect Islam to spread beyond that by conversion, etc. Second many of those aiming for "soverienty" also want a local taliban state - look at what Hamas was doing to secular Palestinians in Gaza toward the end of the first Intifada, or the state of human rights in insurgent occupied Fallujah in Iraq, etc

[Sprayber]

Didn't the chechens try this some years back. Taking a school I mean.. What did the Russians do about it then.

[Velociryx]

Then, sadly, the only solution is to deny them their demands, and re-phrase it.

The hard-line is the only way to go. It sucks, I know, but to do less is to legitimize their actions.

If they hit me with that, I'd hit back with...nope. You release half the kids, and we'll get some food in there. We hear so much as a single gunshot, and you'll get to visit Allah up close and personal a whole lot sooner than you planned on.

Terracts.

-=Vel=-

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Solver
There is nothing wrong with Islam per se, and these terrorists do not represent the billion of Muslims in the world. To back that up immediately, one of the high-ranking Muslim clerics in North Osetia made an offer to exchange himself for hostages. That is noble action deserving respect.

they dont represent Islam per se, but they do represent a significant minority that will oppose ANY military actions against said terrorists. For example there are Chechen terrorists in Pakistan, notably in the NWFP. The MMA, which got about 20% of the vote in Pakistan, and the majority in the NWFP, opposes govt military actions in the NWFP.

It may not be 2 billion muslims, but its a far bigger problem than a handful of terrorists.

[lightblue]

Originally posted by Sprayber
Didn't the chechens try this some years back. Taking a school I mean.. What did the Russians do about it then.

Hospital I think it was, don't know the details exactly anymore i'll try and find them.

[lightblue]

Hmm not Ideal but:

http://www.cbc.ca/passionateeye/terrorinmoscow/terror.html

June 14, 1995: Chechen gunmen took 1,600 hostages at hospital in southern Russian town of Budyonnovsk, near Chechnya. In the week long siege at least 120 people die during bungled Russian assaults. The hostages are freed as the fighters return to Chechnya using 150 people as human shields.

Jan 9, 1996: Chechen militants seized 2,000 hostages at hospital in southern Russian town of Kizlyar. Rebels released most, then headed for Chechnya with about 100 hostages. They are trapped in the village of Pervomaiskoye and attacked by Russian troops. At least 78 die in week-long fight.

[Sprayber]

Originally posted by lightblue
Hmm not Ideal but:

http://www.cbc.ca/passionateeye/terrorinmoscow/terror.html

Thanks for the rundown

Guess the Russians are gonna have to start stationing troops at hospitals and schools.

[pchang]

How about this plan?

1) Over fly the place with helicopters constantly so they get used to the sound.
2) Station as many visible shooters around the school as possible to convince the terrorists to place as many kids as possible in front of windows and doors.
3) Have helicopters drop concrete barriers (like the ones we use on highway dividers) through the roof of the school about 2 meters behind the windows and doors. Hopefully, these barriers will drop between the terrorists and the kids and shield the kids from the ensuing explosions.
4) Have helicopters drop some big "flash bang" bombs into the iterior sections of the school at the same time.
5) Charge the school/drop commandos in from the helicopters immediately after the "flash bangs" go off.

[chequita guevara]

Send in Stephen Segal.

[Velociryx]

What about a big concussive blast?

I mean REALLYFRIGGINBIG?

Big enough to bust eardrums and stun.

Better to have hundreds of living kidderos with hearing troubles than hundreds of dead ones.

Stun the crap out of them, walk in, get kids out, close the door, and make d@mn sure that THESE Chechens don't ever try it again.

-=Vel=-

[pchang]

I'd love to

He is a big jerk. I wouldn't mind seeing something bad happen to him.

this was about Steven Segal

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by pchang
There appear to be 2 types of terrorists in the world:

1) Those who want their own sovereign state.

2) Those who want to impose their view/religion/leadership on the rest of the world.

I hate having to defend terrorist, but there is only one type. That is 1.

[dojoboy]

Originally posted by Smiley
I'm sorry if I sound harsh, but my sympathy for Islam has run out.

I've made this same trip. The only thing to do now is to ally closely the Asian civilization w/ ours (Western). Asia must know that Islam will not live peacefully with them either.

If the Islamist world truely is being bullied by a radical branch, then they should welcome our assistance. If not, then they are complicit in their (radical) deeds. Complete containment (subjugation) of Islam may be the only option.

I think when France finally comes to terms w/ this, we can roll unfettered.

[pchang]

Apparently, I Vel agrees with steps 4 and 5 of my plan.