Do you keep the Sabbath?

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by KrazyHorse
I know that it's not, technically. I'm just saying that telling me that I am able to read a book on physics whereas an construction worker isn't able to go outside and build a fence around his house is ridiculous.

Rabbi Frand:


"We know that there are 39 categories of prohibited work. These are learned from the labors that were needed in the Mishkan. Rav Samson Raphael Hirsch explains that the 39 forbidden categories of work represent man's mastery over the physical world. Therefore, if I rest on Shabbos, I am making the statement that there is a greater Master over this physical world than myself.

If by working six days, I proclaim my mastery over the physical world, then by resting on the seventh day, I am saying "but there is a greater Master over the physical world and that is G-d." Therefore, as our Sages tell us, keeping Shabbos is giving testimony that we believe in G-d's creation of the world. "

[Jon Miller]

Originally posted by KrazyHorse
I don't believe in legislating alcohol.

I am comfortable with the age limits

JM

[KrazyHorse]

Funny, because I'm a lot more likely to gain a lot more mastery over the physical world by thinking about certain things than I am by going out and swinging a sledgehammer.

And deciding how Nature works and how it doesn't seems to me to be usurping God's place a lot more than mowing your lawn does.

[KrazyHorse]

Originally posted by Jon Miller


I am comfortable with the age limits

JM

It was a joke.

MM

[KrazyHorse]

I just realised I have the same initials as michael moore.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi


Yes, but do you communicate using the fancy text of medieval periods, finely crafted, or through more simpler text?

The intricacies can obscure the truth.

To put t differently does a gothic cathedral prevent you from hearing truth? Can you hear sacred texts, and sermons that address the heart, in the setting of a cathedral? So can you study texts, hear sermons, etc during Shabbos, with all its complexity.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by KrazyHorse
Funny, because I'm a lot more likely to gain a lot more mastery over the physical world by thinking about certain things than I am by going out and swinging a sledgehammer.

Now youre getting into philosophy

I would say youre getting into a differnt kind of mastery. And one that Shabbos doesnt address. Shabbos (at least in Rabbi Hirschs view) assumes a distinction between physical and mental mastery. One could say (agathon isnt around, is he ) that R. Hirsch is a Cartesian dualist. If so, and if such dualism is obsolete, a different interpretation of the categories of work will be needed. And rest assured, a different interpretation will be found

[KrazyHorse]

What else are we discussing if not philosophy (or its bastard cousin theology)?

God sounds like a right anal-retentive tosser from the way you're describing him. Unless you believe that God has nothing to do with it and that it's all a bunch of mumbo-jumbo cobbled together over the centuries?

i.e. one more silly tradition

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by KrazyHorse
What else are we discussing if not philosophy (or its bastard cousin theology)?

God sounds like a right anal-retentive tosser from the way you're describing him. Unless you believe that God has nothing to do with it and that it's all a bunch of mumbo-jumbo cobbled together over the centuries?

i.e. one more silly tradition

I thought we were discussing religious practice, which isnt the same thing. Theology - theo - logos - is really a christian concept - traditional Jews dont parse things out like that. Christians - and ex-christians or christian influenced Atheists always seem to be up for some God talk - thats really not what religious Jews spend all their time talking about - though in talking about other things we honor God.


Im reluctant to 'describe' G-d - for a lot of reasons - but your hardly new in being a gentile who finds jewish religious law anal - Id say St. Paul found it thus, though he used different language. All I can say is that its a different civilization with a different way of looking at things - you need to get at it a little more from the inside, with a bit more of an open mind if you wish to understand it (not that you need to - you can live a perfectly full life knowing nothing of Judaism)


As for mumbo jumbo cobbled over the centuries - I happen to follow that school of Judaism that sees the hand of God IN the actions and history of the Jewish people through the centuries, NOT handing down stuff magically on a mountain in Sinai - so the distinction you make is somewhat foreign to me.


another POV on prohibited "work"

'Of course, no discussion of Shabbat would be complete without a discussion of the work that is forbidden on Shabbat. This is another aspect of Shabbat that is grossly misunderstood by people who do not observe it.

Most Americans see the word "work" and think of it in the English sense of the word: physical labor and effort, or employment. Under this definition, turning on a light would be permitted, because it does not require effort, but a rabbi would not be permitted to lead Shabbat services, because leading services is his employment. Jewish law prohibits the former and permits the latter. Many Americans therefore conclude that Jewish law doesn't make any sense.

The problem lies not in Jewish law, but in the definition that Americans are using. The Torah does not prohibit "work" in the 20th century English sense of the word. The Torah prohibits "melachah" (Mem-Lamed-Alef-Kaf-Heh), which is usually translated as "work," but does not mean precisely the same thing as the English word. Before you can begin to understand the Shabbat restrictions, you must understand the word "melachah."

Melachah generally refers to the kind of work that is creative, or that exercises control or dominion over your environment. The word may be related to "melekh" (king; Mem-Lamed-Kaf). The quintessential example of melachah is the work of creating the universe, which G-d ceased from on the seventh day. Note that G-d's work did not require a great physical effort: he spoke, and it was done.

The word melachah is rarely used in scripture outside of the context of Shabbat and holiday restrictions. The only other repeated use of the word is in the discussion of the building of the sanctuary and its vessels in the wilderness. Exodus Ch. 31, 35-38. Notably, the Shabbat restrictions are reiterated during this discussion (Ex. 31:13), thus we can infer that the work of creating the sanctuary had to be stopped for Shabbat. From this, the rabbis concluded that the work prohibited on Shabbat is the same as the work of creating the sanctuary. They found 39 categories of forbidden acts, all of which are types of work that were needed to build the sanctuary: '

[Ben Kenobi]

To put t differently does a gothic cathedral prevent you from hearing truth? Can you hear sacred texts, and sermons that address the heart, in the setting of a cathedral? So can you study texts, hear sermons, etc during Shabbos, with all its complexity.

It can if the homily is in Latin.

Or in my case, if I can't sit near the front.

[Ben Kenobi]

Dare I say that at this time the need for Christian - Muslim and Jewish - Muslims reconciliation is even more urgent than the need for Christian - Jewish reconciliation?

Well, it would go a long ways if Christians and Jews served them on Fridays.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi


It can if the homily is in Latin.

Or in my case, if I can't sit near the front.

Yeah, I cant follow a sermon in Yiddish or even in Modern Hebrew - in fact i have some difficulty with a Rabbi Frand sermon, in "Yeshivash" (nominally English, but so heavily laced with technical terms of Jewish law from Hebrew and Aramaic, plus Yiddish phrases, as to be virtually a foreign language) actually even with Reform, Conservative, and Modern Orthodox sermons in America language is an issue - too many references to say, "Moses" and "Leviticus" (rather than Moshe and VeYikra) and it doesnt feel right - the use of Hebrew (example melachah in the discussion above, instead of the misleading "work") can also avoid theoretical confusion. OTOH TOO MUCH Hebrew and I cant follow it. Fortunately theres plenty of choices, so we can look for what we find comfortable.

As for sitting near the front, my shul allows al hearing system, like some theaters use - too bad if youre Orthodox.

[Ben Kenobi]

As for sitting near the front, my shul allows al hearing system, like some theaters use - too bad if youre Orthodox.

I just need the lips, and I'm fine. But it's always the oldest and most beautiful cathedrals that have the worst sound systems.

My church doesn't have this problem, because the service is in Russian, and I have my best friend translate.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi


I just need the lips, and I'm fine. But it's always the oldest and most beautiful cathedrals that have the worst sound systems.

On friday nights we have a congregant translate the service and the sermon into Ameslan. The rabbi likes to put "odd phrasings" into his sermons to see what she'll do with them

[Jon Miller]

SDA churchs are on general not tha large

JM