To be "cultured"

[Asher]

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
who do you think determines which trends and styles and bands live on after the music has faded away?

The music people enjoy never fades away.

Critics are people who can't get real jobs and think their judgement is superior.

[OzzyKP]

Originally posted by Spiffor
Ozzy:
I guess I understand where the disagreement between us comes from: I am talking about the behaviour of an affluent subculture toward others, whereas you are talking about the behaviour of an age-category toward the others.

Indeed, there is a frequent behaviour of mild scoffing at the youth by the older. But I don't think it has to do with subcultures (subcultures can vary immensely in the same age category), so that's why we weren't in agreement.

Mild scoffing is a form of individual behaviour, just like youth' arrogance is a form of individual behaviour. It is not really related to inggrained perceptions.

Well then we need to do a comparison. Do young upper-class folks have the high-culture snobbish mindset? (to a degree of course, but far, far less than their parents) And conversely, do non-upper class adults have the high-culture snobbish (though admittedly slightly different) mindset? I'd argue they do.

There is/was an ad campaign around here in DC by an adult R&B station here that played up this. Its adds promoted its smooth jazz/R&B play list while at the same time criticizing (in a fairly snobbish way) hip hop. Now in a largely black, largely non-upper class DC, this ad campaign worked well not because it was trageted to the upper-class, but because it was targeted to adults.

[Caligastia]

I'm frankly suprised that OzzyKP has kept up this argument for so long. It's so easy to destroy. Surely it should be obvious to anyone that people with more life experience will generally have more knowledge and wisdom than those with less life experience..

[Imran Siddiqui]

It only becomes objective in the sense that it meets those standards set or not, but those standards themselves can never tell if music is "good" or "bad", just if they adhere to the standards or not.

If it adheres to the standards, then it is 'good'. If it doesn't. It's 'bad'. And the decision making, before you start, is the critic, who will immortalize or destroy a form of music in words, which future generations will first use to decide what was good and bad in the previous generation.

He's popular in the 'cultured' segments of society. He's popular in that everyone knows who he is, and people can claim to like Mozart to try to be "cultured"...

That's nice. So the Bee Gees are popular because they are popular in the 'disco' segments of society and everyone knows who they are?

Art cannot be objective judged to be "good" or "bad'. Ever. Period.

Nice to know you point of view. Of course it doesn't matter. The compliance of the art with the standards set by the power brokers determines goodness.

[Zero]

Originally posted by Spiffor
Heck, even here in 'Poly, do you get more respect when you're using a rather high English (with the willingness not to be snob), or when you use Zero's or 1-1Z-1337's style?

omgomgomgomgomg

dO i rEaLLy gEt LeSS rEsPeCt CaUsE j0o aLL aRe pLaYa HatAzzzzZZ!!!!????

This wolrd is gonna be one ****ed up scary place once kids 10 yrs under me become adults.... imagine world where L337 Scripts being treated like theiyre actually elite!

ROFL OMG WTF LOL. I would enjoy that very much. L337 = <3

[OzzyKP]

Originally posted by Asher

The music people enjoy never fades away.

Exactly my point.

When they are young, they develop their tastes for music and find snobbish adults criticize it. When they get older and become adults themselves they still listen to the same music, and it becomes "high culture" while they turn around and snobbishly criticize the music of their kids.

[Imran Siddiqui]

The music people enjoy never fades away.

Yes it does. There have been plenty of music catagories which have faded to the background to the point of non consequence, like Big Band/Swing.

Critics are people who can't get real jobs and think their judgement is superior.

It's because the society has given them the power to make judgements on our behalf. We understood that these critics have some training or talent and we listen to their judgments.

[OzzyKP]

Originally posted by Caligastia
I'm frankly suprised that OzzyKP has kept up this argument for so long. It's so easy to destroy. Surely it should be obvious to anyone that people with more life experience will generally have more knowledge and wisdom than those with less life experience..

I'm frankly surprized at how adept you are at finding every thread I post in and showing up to flame away with your ageist nonsense.

If your above statement is to be believed, then all decisions of import would be deferred to the elderly. Yet our society sticks the elderly in nursing homes, forces them to retire, and generally expects them to disappear. The people with less life experience, the middle agers are the ones who run the show.

This conflicts with your point.

[Spiffor]

Zero:
I took you as an example because you were in this thread, and because I remember an OG thread where you argued with LOTM over writing style.

I strongly suggest you to look for the few posts by 1-1Z-1337 in 'Poly (I may have misspelled, but I'm sure of the "1337" bout if you want to research). They are hilarious, and the reactions are expectable.

Heck, you cna even look at yavoon: he speak with "u r" and style like that. Many people here can't help but think of him as stupid with such style. On a similar note, many people underestimate CharlesBHoff because of his writing problems.

[Zero]

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui

It only becomes objective in the sense that it meets those standards set or not, but those standards themselves can never tell if music is "good" or "bad", just if they adhere to the standards or not.

If it adheres to the standards, then it is 'good'. If it doesn't. It's 'bad'. And the decision making, before you start, is the critic, who will immortalize or destroy a form of music in words, which future generations will first use to decide what was good and bad in the previous generation.

He's popular in the 'cultured' segments of society. He's popular in that everyone knows who he is, and people can claim to like Mozart to try to be "cultured"...

That's nice. So the Bee Gees are popular because they are popular in the 'disco' segments of society and everyone knows who they are?

Art cannot be objective judged to be "good" or "bad'. Ever. Period.

Nice to know you point of view. Of course it doesn't matter. The compliance of the art with the standards set by the power brokers determines goodness.

mran i agree that the few select people with influence can set the standards and effect other people's view on matters subjective as art, but that deos not mean that art is still objective.

[OzzyKP]

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui

The music people enjoy never fades away.

Yes it does. There have been plenty of music catagories which have faded to the background to the point of non consequence, like Big Band/Swing.

Thats because the people who enjoyed that music faded away. Their tastes didn't. The generation in control, baby boomers, never liked Big Band/Swing so that music isn't respected as high culture. Now there is great reverence paid to music from the 60s/70s. Because (surprize) thats what the boomers grew up on.

[OzzyKP]

But I gotta get to work, so I'll pick this up later in the evening.

[Zero]

Originally posted by Spiffor
Zero:
I took you as an example because you were in this thread, and because I remember an OG thread where you argued with LOTM over writing style.

I strongly suggest you to look for the few posts by 1-1Z-1337 in 'Poly (I may have misspelled, but I'm sure of the "1337" bout if you want to research). They are hilarious, and the reactions are expectable.

Heck, you cna even look at yavoon: he speak with "u r" and style like that. Many people here can't help but think of him as stupid with such style. On a similar note, many people underestimate CharlesBHoff because of his writing problems.

no matter.... i do it intentionally because

1) you people DO think of that as idiotic, and i actually want yall to think im an idiot

2) i think L337 talk is funny as hell. lil kid who uses it seriously crack me up


So i win no matter how one reacts

PWNZED!!!!1!

[Caligastia]

Originally posted by OzzyKP


I'm frankly surprized at how adept you are at finding every thread I post in and showing up to flame away with your ageist nonsense.

Flame away? I haven't hurled any insults have I?

If your above statement is to be believed, then all decisions of import would be deferred to the elderly. Yet our society sticks the elderly in nursing homes, forces them to retire, and generally expects them to disappear. The people with less life experience, the middle agers are the ones who run the show.

This conflicts with your point.

Not really. The elderly generally tend to lose some of their mental abilities. It's a natural part of the aging process that everyone recognises.

[Boris Godunov]

Originally posted by OzzyKP
Plus as for instrumentation, I'd put the skills of an expert electric guitarist against any classical musician.

I'd take a bet on that. Hell, let's just do guitarists. Your expert electric guitarist vs. John Williams or Andres Segovia. I'm not sure you appreciate the incredible amount of work, practice and skill that go into being a classical musician. I'm not saying popular musicians aren't skilled and practiced, or that a few aren't as skillful as classical virtuosos, but it's not a requirement for them to be incredibly savvy technically to do their jobs. The same is not true for classicaly musicians, who MUST be technically proficient to do theirs.

I do resent opera and classical music being used as some sort of snobbery standard. I know plenty of people who are just as snobbish about whatever music they happen to favor. The fact that opera and classical are exceedingly popular with the general public should put that old chestnut to rest. I find people who automatically dismiss opera and classical as elitist to be the bigger snobs.