To be "cultured"

[Spiffor]

Ozzy:
I guess I understand where the disagreement between us comes from: I am talking about the behaviour of an affluent subculture toward others, whereas you are talking about the behaviour of an age-category toward the others.

Indeed, there is a frequent behaviour of mild scoffing at the youth by the older. But I don't think it has to do with subcultures (subcultures can vary immensely in the same age category), so that's why we weren't in agreement.

Mild scoffing is a form of individual behaviour, just like youth' arrogance is a form of individual behaviour. It is not really related to inggrained perceptions.

[Arrian]

This bit is interesting. How old are you Arrian? Not to take this into the personal realm, but if you are middle ageish and you see kids as arrogant know-it alls, and the elderly as arrogant know-it alls, do you find it convenient the one age group you give a pass to is your own?

I'm not middle aged. I'm 27. And I see your point. I wasn't trying to give myself a free pass, actually. I can still be arrogant. I'm just more aware of it now, and try to curb it.

I was thinking of people ~10-15 yrs older than me, who have kids and whatnot.

These are obviously just my observations, but it seems that being around a while makes one more understanding of other views... not always, but often.

-Arrian

edit: and I don't see all kids as arrogant know-it-alls. I said there was a tendency, in my experience. I went through that stage. My eldest nephew has as well. But my cousin - same age as my nephew - really hasn't. Great kid. As smart or smarter than I was, and less of a pain about it.

[Zero]

Originally posted by Arrian
I don't see that the "upperclass" has had much success enforcing its view of culture on the "lowerclass" or whatever. Do people in the inner city like Mozart? Mostly no, they like rap/R&B/salsa. Why? Probably because they feel it's "theirs."

-Arrian

I should add, if u hang out with inner city kids like me, tables have turned. Its rap/R&b that becomes the sophisticated cultured material and anything else is uncultured.

So basically, Its popularity

[Caligastia]

OzzyKP -

You'll understand when you grow up...seriously.

[OzzyKP]

Originally posted by Zero
well theres a difference bwteen i know everything and I know this is wrong. I know everything attitude is very annoying no matter what, but when someone is saying i know this is wrong, you should listen to them to see why they are saying it is so...

Agreed. And speaking from personal experience I never claim to know everything, but I certainly know one thing, ageism, is wrong. And while I don't want to get into a debate on that subject in particular, but that's what I do with many people.

I am daily confronted with people, largely middle-aged adults, who do what you say, and don't listen at all. They have this know-it-all attitude. "Oh you're young what do you know." or "When you are older (i.e. my age) then you'll understand." They assume they are correct, in all things, and for anyone to challenge this they must be rash, presumptious, and an arrogant fool.

[Imran Siddiqui]

I don't see that the "upperclass" has had much success enforcing its view of culture on the "lowerclass" or whatever. Do people in the inner city like Mozart? Mostly no, they like rap/R&B/salsa. Why? Probably because they feel it's "theirs."

People are listening to classical music which was first composed almost 500 years ago. Do you think in 500 years people will be listening to the Beatles with such frequency? I doubt it.

[Arrian]

And that's unfortunate. I was lucky enough to grow up around adults who listened to me, and had a little patience.

-Arrian

edit: crosspost.

[Zero]

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
Generally accepted subjective standards tend to turn into, for all intents and purposes, objective standards, especially after a few generations. And how does intellect not play a role in subjectivity? In order to argue your case, that your subjective notion is better than B's subjective notion, you have to have intellect

then, anything popular becomes objectively the measurement for superiority. After all this bickering, it is the popularity that determines superiority after all. Glad we agree.

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by Arrian
I don't see that the "upperclass" has had much success enforcing its view of culture on the "lowerclass" or whatever. Do people in the inner city like Mozart? Mostly no, they like rap/R&B/salsa. Why? Probably because they feel it's "theirs."

Maybe it's because of my French upbringing, given that France is quite bad in the domain. But in pretty much every dealing with a position of authority, which culture is rewarded? At school, do you get good marks for knowing classical literature, or for knowing Survivor by heart? At work, do you get respected by your boss when you talk to him like a ghetto-boy, like a hick, or like a "polite" and "educated" person?
Heck, even here in 'Poly, do you get more respect when you're using a rather high English (with the willingness not to be snob), or when you use Zero's or 1-1Z-1337's style?

[Arrian]

Gotta run, fellas. Enjoyed the discussion.

-Arrian

[OzzyKP]

Originally posted by Caligastia
OzzyKP -

You'll understand when you grow up...seriously.

Exactly as I expected. Thanks for providing an example for us. Right on cue too.

[Asher]

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
Not the point. The point is that Norah Jones is considered better because of objective measurements in music.

How can that be a serious point if it's nothing but rhetoric? What are the objective measurements in music, an who decides them?

Generally accepted subjective standards tend to turn into, for all intents and purposes, objective standards, especially after a few generations.

This is precisely my point -- no, it doesn't. It only becomes objective in the sense that it meets those standards set or not, but those standards themselves can never tell if music is "good" or "bad", just if they adhere to the standards or not. You think of the music does, it's good, else it's bad.

I think that's a ridiculous way to look at art. That's not what art is about.

Is that your subjective view about people's views on art?

Obviously critics have a job for a reason. People believe they can tell them what the standards are and if this work matches them.

But that doesn't say anything about if the work is good or not, just if it's "standards compliant".

Just because everyone knows him doesn't mean he is popular. How many people listen to Mozart compared to the popular acts of today? I'm sure he sells much less than a million records in the US per year.

He's popular in the 'cultured' segments of society. He's popular in that everyone knows who he is, and people can claim to like Mozart to try to be "cultured"...

It's smart because the upperclass succeeds in forcing its values through its methods. Logic is an art which happens to be lost on you.

You're the one who thinks standards compliance determines of art is "good" or "bad'.

Art cannot be objectively judged to be "good" or "bad'. Ever. Period.

[Imran Siddiqui]

anything popular becomes objectively the measurement for superiority.

Not so. Britney Spears is not the measurement of superiority. Likewise, someone like Jimmy Hendrix, who only had one #1 record is considered a measurement of superiority. It goes beyond popularity, though they have to have some popularity to get on the charts at all. It is more of a consensus of those deemed musical experts and critics. The act in question may not be a popular group, but the critics, who we have given decision making power, may crown them as king. And before Asher comes in here ranting and raving about 'critics', who do you think determines which trends and styles and bands live on after the music has faded away?

[Caligastia]

Originally posted by OzzyKP




Exactly as I expected. Thanks for providing an example for us. Right on cue too.

One day you'll look back on your youthful bravado with a smile.

[Zero]

For I know all VS you know jack****... its usually both party at fault. its a maddening, never ending spiral...

Child: I know!

adult: no you dont know what do you know?

Child: Well to prove I know, I must show I need to know more!

adult: I must stop his know all attitude, I must question his knowledge more!

Child: I must show I know more!

adult: I must show he doesnt know more!

and on and on....