The foundation of modern christianity

[Alexander's Horse]

I'm really not sure what Pax Africanus point is anymore.

[Aeson]

If the originator of the message and all the people that knew the truth are dead then the truth will never be known.

You are making the assumption here that God doesn't exist and that the original message is impossible to formulate. Which means there was no original message... it is impossible to formulate and no one there to do the impossible.

If there is a God, he could surely give the truth to whomever He chose.

If there isn't a God, then this ideology was developed by man and man could develope the same ideology again.

[Pax]

My point is that the bible is corrupt. Has been corrupt at least since Emperor Constantine time. My point is that most christian practices are in fact pagan. This in effect makes western religion pagan because the source is pagan.

[Alexander's Horse]

Originally posted by Pax Africanus
My point is that the bible is corrupt. Has been corrupt at least since Emperor Constantine time. My point is that most christian practices are in fact pagan. This in effect makes western religion pagan because the source is pagan.

Oh well you're in minority there old chap - and very absolute statements of opinion- perhaps you need to be a bit more openminded?

[Alexander's Horse]

Scene 2


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Jesus speaks

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[music]
JESUS CHRIST:
How blest are those who know that He's a god. How blest are the sorrowful. They shall find consolation. How blest are those of gentle spirit. They shall have the earth for their possession. How blest are those who hunger and thirst to see right prevail.
RANDOM:
[cough cough]
JESUS:
They shall be satisfied. How blest are those whose hearts are pure. They shall see God...
MANDY:
Speak up!
MAN:
Shh.
BRIAN:
Quiet, Mum.
JESUS:
How blest are those of gentle...
MANDY:
Well, I can't hear a thing.
JESUS:
...spirit. They shall have the earth for their possession.
MANDY:
Let's go t' the stoning.
MR. CHEEKY:
Do you mind? I can't hear a word he's saying.
JESUS:
...who hunger and thirst to see...
MAN #1:
I think it was 'Blessed are the cheesemakers.'
JESUS:
...right prevail.
MRS. GREGORY:
Ahh, what's so special about the cheesemakers?
GREGORY:
Well, obviously, this is not meant to be taken literally. It refers to any manufacturers of dairy products.
MR. CHEEKY:
See? If you hadn't been going on, we'd have heard that, Big Nose.
JESUS:
...hunger and thirst to see...
MAN #2:
You hear that? Blessed are the Greek.
GREGORY:
The Greek?
MAN #2:
Mmm. Well, apparently, he's going to inherit the earth.
GREGORY:
Did anyone catch his name?
MRS. BIG NOSE:
Oh, it's the meek! Blessed are the meek! Oh, that's nice, isn't it? I'm glad they're getting something, 'cause they have a hell of a time.
[music]
FRANCIS:
Well, blessed is just about everyone with a vested interest in the status quo, as far as I can tell, Reg.
REG:
Yeah. Well, what Jesus blatantly fails to appreciate is that it's the meek who are the problem.
JUDITH:
Yes, yes. Absolutely, Reg. Yes, I see.
MANDY:
Oh, come on, Brian, or they'll have stoned him before we get there.
BRIAN:
All right.
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Back to the Life of Brian page / On to the next scene!

[Jon Miller]

Originally posted by Pax Africanus
My point is that the bible is corrupt. Has been corrupt at least since Emperor Constantine time. My point is that most christian practices are in fact pagan. This in effect makes western religion pagan because the source is pagan.

nope deffinitely wrong, as is seen in the writings preconstantine

if you think that what people decided was correct is wrong, than feel free to follow others (just like some christian churchs do)

but the picking of what books are cannon, and the arguments about that, were mostly decided by constantines time, and the ones that we use are like those found from ~110 AD

in fact a few differences were noted, and there are Bibles out now with slight differences depending on the source (nothing to major unless you start looking at books that the major religious leaders before constatine didn't like)

Jon Miller

[Pax]

I'm not arguing whether or not there is a god.
Working off the assumption that there is a god and there was an original message. That message is susceptible to tampering from the moment it was entrusted to man. Any man being fallible and with sin could alter the message. Constantine is a point where it was likely altered. The alterations by man explain the many contradictions in the message. If there is a god he does'nt come around and speak directly to the masses in this day and age. He usually works in mystrious ways or so I'm told. That could be me as his vessel telling you guys to turn away from the false bible.

If the ideology was developed by man and changed as it was passed from hand to hand the only way you would be able to get to the root is if you had a copy of the original.

has anybody seen the original?

[Jon Miller]

would you please read some actual Bible scholarship on the issue?

maybe you would learn something

not to say that many don't agree with you, it is just that they put it as much ealier than constantine (like Paul)

the possibility of tampering I don't have a problem with (I think that there might have been a little)

the big deal about Constantine is just BS though, and is BS for many known reasons, which I have stated

Jon Miller

[Aeson]

If the ideology was developed by man and changed as it was passed from hand to hand the only way you would be able to get to the root is if you had a copy of the original.

has anybody seen the original?

We actually do have some of the originals... (although nothing is certain )

That's beside the point though. Haven't you ever read a book and thought "hey, that's what I think too"? Happens to me all the time. Ideas I developed while observing my surroundings were developed long ago in others observing similar surroundings.

That is because if there is 'truth' in an ideology the 'original' is actually existance itself. I can look at it, you can look at it, it is there for everyone. If I wrote down "the sky is blue", and someone mistranslated it "the sky is yellow", does that mean no one can ever know the sky is blue? Of course not.

[Alexander's Horse]

Originally posted by Pax Africanus

Working off the assumption that there is a god and there was an original message.

Well that assumption itself would be clearly wrong in the eyes of most christians because revelation is made up of a series of messages from God. The bible contains many messages reputed to be from God at different places and times and to and from different people, heavenly beings or directly from God. Many of these messages are mysterious and inscrutable. Some are in the form of dream sequences. If you look for an original message you will search in vain.

[Elok]

Let's see if I'm following you, PA (er, Pax Africanus, not Park Avenue, in case he posted here):

Constantine is suspect as a messenger of God because he doesn't seem at all compatible with our impression of Jesus. Therefore, the New Testament standardized under his supervision is suspect, and probably has pagan influences and other corruptions from the original. Is that what you're saying?

One problem: Our entire impression of Jesus comes from the New Testament itself. Every whiny atheist who ever complained on this board has made it clear, with ludicrous amounts of evidence, that Jesus is only barely mentioned in passing by other historical texts. There are Gospels which are not included in the NT, some of which are available today, but most of them were excised for pagan influence themselves, and a quick reading today shows that judgment correct. Someone posted excerpts from the Gospel of Thomas here on the OT a few months ago, and the pagan mystery religion influences were painfully obvious. Lots of crap about the Secret Wisdom for the Chosen and so on.

So who's this "Jesus" you're talking about? Are you pulling a Thomas Jefferson, taking the original scriptures and deciding certain parts are spurious, and if so, what criteria are you using besides your own personal feelings?

[Pax]

I did point out that Jesus and Constantine are two different types of people. I did state that Constantine's character does not fit with Christian principles.
However, that's not the basis of my argument. I point to the concept of saints as a obvious link to paganism.
I point to the fact that Constantine had motive and opportunity to influence the bible during his reign.
I point to the many contradictions in the bible as evidence of tampering.
There are several signs that would make the bible suspect. If you look at all of my posts you will see only a few of them.
From my OPEN MINDED position of unbiased assessment of the good book, I firmly believe that it has been made by men as a tool for subjugation. The words in the bible have been used to justify everything from the Spanish inquisition to slavery to hate groups. I maintain that the people who wrote the bible were very smart and knew exactly what they were doing.
Honestly, the existence of a god or jesus is not really even relevant to my point. My point is that Emperor Constantine more than likely conspired to bring into existence a tool that he could use for his own purposes.

[Ben Kenobi]

I'm back.

Verto:

shall we say "wild" parties bankrupted the papacy, resulting in indulgences.

So why should one sin be greater than another?

[Alexander's Horse]

That's hilarious Pax.

Are you Erich von Danekin by any chance?

http://www.debunker.com/texts/vondanik.html

[Verto]

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi
I'm back.

Verto:



So why should one sin be greater than another?

Are you going to argue that all sins are equal?