Socialist claim victory in Spain

[joncha]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Socialist claim victory in Spain

Originally posted by PLATO


The point is that the majority polled differently before the attack. The nearness to the elections of the attack allowed no time for public opinion to stabilize. This was clearly a reactionary vote. If you had put Bush up for re-election a week after 9/11 then he would have gotten 90% of the vote. Upon further reflection, it doesn't appear that will be the result, now does it?

All that proves is that the Spanish electorate is less easily duped than the American electorate.

[PLATO]

Originally posted by jasev


I don't think so. The PSOE won not because of Al-Queda but because of the pathetic attemps by the PP to blame ETA when they couldn't know it (and later, when they really knew ETA had no relationship).

While this is indeed a different problem, it does speak to the reactionary nature of events shortly after a terrorist attack. Surely this type of thing entered into al-qaida's planning.

[jasev]

This was clearly a reactionary vote. If you had put Bush up for re-election a week after 9/11 then he would have gotten 90% of the vote. Upon further reflection, it doesn't appear that will be the result, now does it?

Maybe, but after an attack, usually the reaction is FOR the government, not AGAINST it, isn't it?

[PLATO]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Socialist claim victory in Spain

Originally posted by joncha


All that proves is that the Spanish electorate is less easily duped than the American electorate.

uh...right.

[joncha]

Both the American people and the Spanish people were sold a cynical line by their governments after suffering horrible attacks by terrorists. The American electorate, by and large, bought the line. The Spanish voters did not.

[molly bloom]

Originally posted by NeOmega
Anzar and his ilk are responsible for what happened in Madrid.

I think you should inform the Spanish police, security services and coroners that you have knowledge that a cabal of Spanish conservative politicians planted and set off the bombs.

It will certainly come as news to the rest of the world too.

[PLATO]

Originally posted by jasev


Maybe, but after an attack, usually the reaction is FOR the government, not AGAINST it, isn't it?

Yes, unless the government is seen as causing the attack. With over 90% public opinion against Iraq, I can easily see the government getting the blame initially. With further consideration, reasonable people would realize that the action the government took (weather right or wrong) was to ultimately protect the citizens in the long run.

[jasev]

Both the American people and the Spanish people were sold a cynical line by their governments after suffering horrible attacks by terrorists. The American electorate, by and large, bought the line. The Spanish voters did not.

But I think the spanish government handled it awfully. If they had said "There are reasons to think that islamic terrorists can be behind the attacks, and this is a proof that our strategy was right: war against terrorism", they would have lost votes. But denying it, lying to the people, pressing the national and international press... the citizenship discovered the lie and they couldn't resist a lie about 200 deaths.

[PLATO]

Originally posted by joncha
Both the American people and the Spanish people were sold a cynical line by their governments after suffering horrible attacks by terrorists. The American electorate, by and large, bought the line. The Spanish voters did not.

Don't be so naive. The goal of al-Qaida is universal Islamic Fundamentalist rule. What could eithier government say that could make that more cynical. I would agree that Americans were motivated to action (that is our way afterall). But I do not think that the Spanish people don't get the importance of what is going on.

[PLATO]

Originally posted by jasev


But I think the spanish government handled it awfully. If they had said "There are reasons to think that islamic terrorists can be behind the attacks, and this is a proof that our strategy was right: war against terrorism", they would have lost votes. But denying it, lying to the people, pressing the national and international press... the citizenship discovered the lie and they couldn't resist a lie about 200 deaths.

A terrible mistake by the government. Totally unnecessary.

[germanos]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Socialist claim victory in Spain

Originally posted by PLATO


I am afraid that this is truer than you think. The restrictions on freedom that have been implemented and that are being discussed can be nothing short of an al-qaida victory.

If you truly think this is the case, I hope you will fight this with all your might.

I still support the war in Iraq on the basis of limiting terrorism. The reasons are that the face of the Middle East must change in order for terrorism to be ultimately defeated. If (Big IF) democracy can take hold in that region then it will help difuse the causes of terrorism and radical fundamentalism.

The real big question is if democracy can take hold in the middle-east by the use of Force. Many who oppose the war against Iraq claim this cannot be so.

The attacks in Spain do point out that limiting terrorism has NOT been a result from the campaign against Iraq. Offcourse this message has allready been plain if you consider the situation in Iraq itself.

This war on terror is quite real. Civilization scored a victory in Afghanistan. It took a chance in Iraq (which hopefully will end up being successful).

The latter is NOT a sign of Civilization, whatever that may exactly be

Civilization lost battles with 9/11, the patriot act, the fracturing of the western alliance, the Madrid bombings, and now the Spanish elections (I am not saying that the socialists are unfit, just that their victory was a result of successful terrorism).

Dismissing the election results in Spain as being unCivilized is quite a big thing to say. In fact it shows great contempt for people who do have made a choice
in what kind of society they wish to live, and who do willingly choose the goverment they want.

If election results don't fit your agenda, and if you then call the electorate uncivilized or perhaps even undemocratic, then I really cannot fathom what you eleive to be civilized or a democracy, that you so eagerly wish to get established in the middle-east.

[joncha]

Originally posted by PLATO


Don't be so naive. The goal of al-Qaida is universal Islamic Fundamentalist rule. What could eithier government say that could make that more cynical. I would agree that Americans were motivated to action (that is our way afterall). But I do not think that the Spanish people don't get the importance of what is going on.

...and Bush manipulated this motivation to action into forwarding his own agenda. That is a cynical strategy. The PP blamed ETA, first without proof, then against all proof because it supporting their agenda. That is another cynical strategy. In the US situation, the American people chose (wrongly, IMO) to trust their government. The Spanish people used a little bit more critical thinking, and did not.

[GePap]

If we buy the oft repeated "AQ hates us for our freedom", then any time a people get to elect their new leaders freely and a peaceful transfer of power occurs, AQ has lost. Will now the people who repeat this most often stop saying it? Or do they trully believe it?

Plato: those that sold the war on Iraq sold it a a short term action-an immidiate cure to an immidiate problem -remmber all the flack given to Dean for saying we werew not a lick safer having caught Saddam? Well, to the people of Spain, this has come to shown true- Iraq is a very long term part of the possible solution to the war on terror, which will not yield benefits for at leasta decade in that regard. It was not sold that way though-and those that sold the war on false premises should see the consequences of their claims.

[jasev]

Dismissing the election results in Spain as being unCivilized is quite a big thing to say. In fact it shows great contempt for people who do have made a choice
in what kind of society they wish to live, and who do willingly choose the goverment they want

I want to say that, in this elections, a 77% of the registered citizens have voted. Let me point that in Spain every citizen is automatically registered at his 18th birthday.

[JCG]

Btw, the PP seems to have done better (102) than the PSOE (81) in the Senate elections, with 61.5% of the results in.