What exactly does "left" or "right" mean to you?

[Ben Kenobi]

more disingenuity.

Can't you take a playful jab?

[molly bloom]

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui

It wasn't just an overnight thing like the French revolution, where the people overthrew the government and then placed in a system which deviated from just about every single tradition France had at the time.

Well if you’re going to quibble about the revolutionary act of enfranchising women being rather a gradual thing because people were campaigning for it for decades beforehand, then the French Revolution can also be seen to be a gradual thing, because the Encylopaedists, les Philosophes and French nobles had been used to discussing the existing French constitution, such as it was, for decades before the final breech with the absolutist monarchy came about.

(Rousseau's The Social Contract: publ. 1762:

"As long as a people is compelled to obey, and obeys, it does well; as soon as it can shake off the yoke, and shakes it off, it does still better; for, regaining its liberty by the same right as took it away, either it is justified in resuming it, or there was no justification for those who took it away." )

Enlightenment ideas of legal reform and universal principles of citizenship were what motivated the National Assembly, and equality before the law in fiscal and juridical obligations was a truly revolutionary notion, and yet Burke would surely not have disapproved of such a ‘dangerous’ idea, having been used to habeas corpus as a limiting power on autocracy.

In any case, 1789 saw a despotic absolutist monarchy replaced with a new ‘constitutional’ monarchy, similar in effect to that of the English Restoration or Glorious Revolution, in which power sharing was between the king and the people’s representatives, as embodied in the National Assembly. Only when this proved unworkable was monarchy put out of the picture in 1792, and a French Republic declared.

Three years to me is not sudden- after all, as Harold Wilson said, ‘a week is a long time in politics’.

The influence of hostile powers in 1793 and 1794 spurred on a centralization of French government in reply to the exceptional nature of the military and political threat (internal/external) to the cohesion of France- a threat that Burke’s Great Britain aided and abetted.

Once the immediate threats had been dealt with, an easing of the more absolutist tendencies of government came about, which saw power return to the parliamentary body, and only the coup d’etat of 1799 brought this ‘Convention’ to an end.

The ossified traditional nature of the absolutist French monarchy brought about its own destruction- if for instance, it had consulted that ‘traditional’ body, the Estates General (before 1789, last called in 1614!) then perhaps it could have continued like the British monarchy.

[Ben Kenobi]

Umm, a large percentage of Catholics who are pro-life are political leftists. I work with one such person, and have known several over the years.

If you are willing to call the pope, leftist, then by all means, I am willing to concede that there are leftists who are prolife.

http://www.democratsforlife.org/

They must be lonely folks.

Not sure if this is willful ignorance or what...

blindness, Boris. Willful blindness.

And no, I have not seen that site.

Generally, it's the leftists who chuck out the prolifers, not the other way around.

[Ben Kenobi]

http://www.humanlifereview.com/article_2003_fall_meehan.html

Thank you Boris.



A valuable addition to my files.

[Ben Kenobi]

Hard line righties believe that capitalism is the only morally permissible economic system.

Well, then I'm not a hard line rightie.

Based on what I said before, the Christian has to view capitalism at best as a necessary evil, and probably as a vile menace that requires removal.

Vile menace? Plenty of evidence to the contrary. I think they should strive for a balance, in allowing those who are poor to be taken care of through charity, and not left on the streets to fend for themselves, as we see today.

I also want to make another point, that the enemy of the worker, is not the owner of the business, rather the best friend of a worker ought to be his employer. Whereas the workers can help each other, it is the employer who makes sure that there is food on the table. And vice versa. The employer eats because of the work done by his workers.

Plenty do. There's nothing in the fundamental values of left wing movements that mandates pro-choice.

Really. So this is why folks like Dennis Kucinich dismiss their prolife values in order to be elected?

That is why I am disappointed in the left, faced with a progressive social issue, that they have abandoned their calling.

[Kuciwalker]

Originally posted by Agathon
Conservatives hate policies that lead to radical change, like the Great War and the crash of 1929.

Last time I checked, those were bad things... so it kinda makes sense to dislike policies that lead to them

[Imran Siddiqui]

Well if you’re going to quibble about the revolutionary act of enfranchising women being rather a gradual thing because people were campaigning for it for decades beforehand, then the French Revolution can also be seen to be a gradual thing, because the Encylopaedists, les Philosophes and French nobles had been used to discussing the existing French constitution, such as it was, for decades before the final breech with the absolutist monarchy came about.

The overthrow of the monarchy itself wouldn't been so bad, as I've said, if the French stuck to the other traditions they had. They could have survived if they more or less kept the same systems, but taken the King's power and given it to the Parlements or an executive council. The problem is that the subsequent power takers decided this didn't go far enough, and wanted radical change. They decided this all was bunk, and we should even change the names of the days, how many days in a month, the names of the month (in essense they metricized time). It is symbolic of the number they did on French traditions. They attempted a form of Parisian centralization, which antagonized the countryside (which were pro-monarch anyway) and decided to toss out ALL influences of religion!

If they had gone the conservative route of the American revolt, they would have been ok. When they started to throw out all tradition, willy nilly, the social order begun to break down. A power vaccuum developed and they got a new monarchy not long after.

[Boris Godunov]

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi
If you are willing to call the pope, leftist, then by all means, I am willing to concede that there are leftists who are prolife.

Catholics are not a monolithic ideological block. Last I looked, the notion that one had to be 100% in agreement with the Pope to be considered a "true Catholic" was discredited by the church some years ago.

So yes, there are plenty of Catholics and other folks who are prolife yet politically leftist otherwise.

[Urban Ranger]

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui

How can the neocons be liberals if they don't believe in equality?

Why do they don't believe in equality? Equality in what sense? Cultural equality?

Imran shows his lack of knowledge in the matter.

[Imran Siddiqui]

No, I'm pointing out other's lack of knowledge. The only 'equality' that neoconservatives don't believe in is Cultural equality, which plenty of liberals don't believe in either.

[Ben Kenobi]

Boris:

So why is the pope not leftist politically, while these other folks are?

[Ned]

Originally posted by Sava
I hate the linear political model. I use "left" and "right" primarily for economics... nothing else. People's political beliefs are too complex to divide into two camps.

Sava, which is the "left" position to you and which is the "right" position:

1) a balanced budget or a surplus is normally good for the economy;

or

2) a deficit is nomally good for the economy?

[Ned]

Re: Re: What exactly does "left" or "right" mean to you?

Originally posted by The diplomat
This is how I define Left and Right politically:

Left: anti free market, favor tight government regulation of economy, favor big social spending, relunctant to use milirary force, more willing to change social traditions.

Right: pro free market, favor economic deregulation, prefer to emphasize military spending instead of social spending, traditional on social issues.

The military spending divide is driven primarily by the left's lack of concern over threats to the US, particularly communism which is, after all, socialism, and a worldview that emphasizes America as the problem, not the solution.

[Ned]

Without going through this whole thread, could someone please define for me what a fiscal conservative is? To me, Governor Dean is a fiscal conservative because he wants to eliminate tax cuts and balance the budget.

[Ben Kenobi]

To me, Governor Dean is a fiscal conservative because he wants to eliminate tax cuts and balance the budget.

Fiscal conservatives desire the balancing of the budgets, lowering spending, while avoiding a raise in taxes.