Gay Marriage views at Apolyton

[Ned]

Originally posted by CharlesBHoff
Christian in Europe was spead by the sword especial the one who believe that God is three persons. That why they accue Islam of speading by the swors as that how Christian spead. From the beginning it was forbin to use force to convert people to Islam. It Islam have use force there wouldnot be million's of christian in the middle east left.

The only examples that I know of were the Goths in the 700's, whose persection of the Jews lead to the invasion of the Berbers; and Karl de Grosse's forced conversion of the Saxons.

In all other cases, the covernsions were ordered by King and obeyed by his people. The reason Karl could not simply order the Saxons to convert was they did not feel they owed him any allegience whatsoever. They were a conquered people.

[Proteus_MST]

Originally posted by Ned

Proteus, you seem to have fallen for the spells and propaganda of our resident communist chairman.

Not exactly.
It´s rather because I am just 2-3 months away from my Diploma in Biology
and as I my study is somehow centered around Biopsychology and Neurobiology,
I also read a lot about Ethology.

Within Animals many strategies center around giving your Genes to the next generation,
normally the female animal takes care that she is only inseminated by the fittest animal she can get (be it the smarttest, or the strongest or the animal which is highest oin the social ladder)

But the male also has a lot of tricks, to get more offspring with his genes. Lions for example are known to kill the Babies of their Rivals after they succeeded in a battle agaionst their Rival and therefore took over his hunting grounds and his harem.
This is done because a lioness can´t get pregneant if she still nurses cubs and, if the cubs are killed she can get sooner pregnant (but this time with the genes of the Lion in Command )
Of course the Lioness tries to prevent this, but she often fails, as the male lion is stronger.
Some Tactics among animals even involve that a male removes the Semen of his predecessor from the femals (various Incsect Species)
or that they risk their lifes either by mating the female (female Spiders are known to eat the males, female mantis are known to bite off the head of their mates during sex (and it has been proven, that a female mantis produces more and healthier offspring if she bites off the head of her mate than if she doesn´t do it) or in order to attract females (female Birds of Paradiese are known to choose the Male with the longest Tail. The Problem is, that longer tails also mean, that the Bird takes longer time to take off, which could mean death, if a Predator appears).

Also some differences between male and female animals (including humans) center around producing offspring with their genes:
For males it is advantageous to inseminate as much females as possible so that as much females as possible get offspring with their genes.
On the other Hand females tend to carefully choose the male from wich they want to get pregnant, according to which male can get the best protection and future for their offspring.
That´s because pregnancy takes a long time for a female during which she first has to bear the child and then to nurse it (and preferably protecting it for some time) until she can think of giving birth to another child (whereas males could inseminate a lot of females during a short time)

So I think, from the standpoint of an ethologist Che is right with thinking, that the Ritual of Marriage could initially also have been be centered around binding the female to the male (but also vice versa), to ensure that the offspring really carry genes from this male alone (and, if polygamous marriages aren´t allowed, also to ensure that the male doesn´t sleep with another female)

[Boris Godunov]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara
Constatine was not full emperor until ater he converted. He was only co-emperor.

Indeed, his conversion was likely before he was even a co-emperor. We have at least three different historical accounts for his conversion, all centered around the battle of Milvian Bridge, in 312. That battle secured him the Western emperorship over his rivals, and he did not become sole emperor until 324.

And I thought it was pretty well-known that the Gothic invaders into the Roman Empire in the 5th century were Christian by that point. After all, a crucial part of that history is the conflict between the Latin Church and the German's Arianism.

[Imran Siddiqui]

Remember that Constantine did not make Christianity Rome's official religion. The Edict of Milan simply made Christianity equal to other faiths again. It was Theodosius who established Christianity and created the Corpus Christianum and Ceasaropapism.

[Ned]

And, it was Valentinian III who, in 445, made the Bishop of Rome the Pontifex Maximus, a title the Pope holds to this day.

[Proteus_MST]

I always wondered why Bishops, which were initially just accountants for their parish (and therefore were not considered to be above other members of their parish in a spiritual sense)
could get so much power within the catholic church.

Especially that an accountant of the parisah in Rome became the head of the whole catholic church is something which always amazes me.
Especially as Jesus himself didn´t care a lot about money and just said (about paying taxes): Render therefore unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's; and unto God the things that are God's.

[Elok]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara
Anyway, when the Romans really wanted to crush a religion, it got crushed. Where are the Druids today?

They're pretty silly, but still ticking in the form of Wicca. Not that it matters for the sake of this discussion. Don't know that the discussion matters for the sake of the validity of Christian doctrine either. The faith was spread by violence in the past, not now. And even if it had to be spread by violence to succeed, that might say just as much about human nature as it does about the faith itself. Hint, hint, Mr. Commie.

[Drake Tungsten]

Actually, Druidism was pretty thoroughly wiped out, so much so that we really don't have much of an idea what Druidic religion actually entailed. There are hints that it was quite the bloody affair and probably bore little resemblence to the tree-hugging Wicca religion we have today.

[Boris Godunov]

Originally posted by Proteus_MST
I always wondered why Bishops, which were initially just accountants for their parish (and therefore were not considered to be above other members of their parish in a spiritual sense)
could get so much power within the catholic church.

Especially that an accountant of the parisah in Rome became the head of the whole catholic church is something which always amazes me.
Especially as Jesus himself didn´t care a lot about money and just said (about paying taxes): Render therefore unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's; and unto God the things that are God's.

With the collapse of Roman power came a collapse of the local system of government. With such a vacuum, it was only natural that local bishops, seen as leaders by their flock, should step in and take political leadership. People turned to the only leaders they had left.

[Elok]

Hey, how much do you think tent revivals resemble ancient Christian worship? But I was pretty much kidding, yeah. A day not spent being a heel to people with different opinions is a day poorly spent. And stuff.

[Drake Tungsten]

I don't see why you guys bother arguing about these obsolete religions, anyway. We'll all be a part of Tenrikyo soon enough...

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by Dr Strangelove
I think that if the world were ending and we needed to shelter a limited number of people undergraound to perserve the human race then polygamy would even be desireable to provide for the maximum population growth when the crisis was over. I would suggest a ratio of about ten women to one man. The survivors would be chosen from among the world's best human specimens, scientists, doctors, intellectuals, doctors, high government officials, doctors, and .... you get the picture. This is an original idea, I though of it, so I get first dibs.

"We're going to Doomsday city and have some fun,
Yeah we're goin' to Doomsday City where it's ten to one,
Ten girls for every boy-oy-oy-oy."

[CharlesBHoff]

Originally posted by Ned


The only examples that I know of were the Goths in the 700's, whose persection of the Jews lead to the invasion of the Berbers; and Karl de Grosse's forced conversion of the Saxons.

In all other cases, the covernsions were ordered by King and obeyed by his people. The reason Karl could not simply order the Saxons to convert was they did not feel they owed him any allegience whatsoever. They were a conquered people.

Still force convertion as what would happen if some people refuse. In 1492 Spain pass a law that said all jews and muslim have to convert to Christian or leave or face the inquistor. That still force convertion.

[Ned]

Originally posted by Boris Godunov


With the collapse of Roman power came a collapse of the local system of government. With such a vacuum, it was only natural that local bishops, seen as leaders by their flock, should step in and take political leadership. People turned to the only leaders they had left.

This is true.

But the political power of the Bishop of Rome came from his being the Pontifex Maximus. As the Empire fell away, its bishops remain under the authority of the Bishop of Rome. When the Germans became Catholic, their religious leadership fell under the authority of the "pope."

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by Ned
No, the point I was making was that outlawing a religion, even at the pain of death, does not result in its extinction.

A valid point, but the Romans really didn't enforce the ban on Christianity, not like they did on Druidism. They didn't hunt down Christians, but if it came to their attention someone was Chritians, that person was likely in a lot of trouble. I would like to note that not a few Christians brought themselves to the Roman's attentions. For example, Irianius (sp?) signed a letter to the authorities asking for the end of persecution against the Romans, etc. Kinda like "Don't Ask, Don't Tell" in today's military.