I don't get the whole heaven thing

[Kuciwalker]

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi
So why be an atheist?

Because you don't believe there is a God, maybe

[Robert]

Originally posted by Kucinich
But doing good things isn't a part of atheism. Atheism has nothing to do with morality. Thus, there have been atheists.

But doing good things isn't a part of christianity either. Christianity has nothing to do with morality.

The bible teaches us that we are not capable of living a moral life (both christians and non-christians)
We should not try to live a moral life, we should give our lives to Jesus.
Living a good life should be an automatic result that comes from that. But it's not a goal in itself.

Paul teaches us that: "I had not known sin, but by the law", romans 7 teaches us that the first purpose of the law is opening our eyes to our sinfull nature. Not to set a moral standard we should try to live to. Hence, Paul says: "that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter."

We should be renewed, and live a renewed life. We should not read old letters on paper and live to that. That's the message of the christian faith.

Unfortunately not understood by many christians

[bipolarbear]

Is heaven merely the acceptance of God's goodness? Or is it actually being in his presence or whatever? Why can't he give us the opportunity to have all the good stuff of heaven? Or why can't he provide a fun "alternate activity" for those of us who opt out?

In third grade, I went to a very small(less than fifty kids in the school, and it ran kindergarten and Pre School and throuhg high school so I mean small.) fundamentalist christain school. Very full of what in my Area, we call ACF'ers(ApplegateChristainFellwoship)
Basically a cult traininground for all of Jesus's little Technicolor Rainbow Children.
The teacher ther ,along with convincing us that the world was going to end, also told us, when we weren't memorizing bible verses, about god, and Heaven, and nobody spoke up, b/c one kid did, and he was the demon seed, and Damien incarnate.
She told us that Heaven was a paradise of physical pleasures, and you got anything, and everything yo ucould ever want ,and it was ll happiness, and everyone is there, and you breathe underwater, and anything cna happen, but you wnao't care, b/c you'll be too busy worshipping god.
I used to think that was total horse crap, b/c as far as i know she meant going to church, nad I think flying w/ a jet pack and shooting McGriddles out of my fingertips sounds much better than church. To some degree I still think it is horsecrap, b/c I don't think that religions are for everyone, but that's another ranting tirade.
Basically, after taking my world religions class, and studying many religions, including christainity, I have come to the conclusion that heaven or moksha, or whatever, is actually just a state of being equal w/ god. We are all god, adn are all gods. Kind of a sort of Walt Whitman type thing.

[St Leo]

Originally posted by DeathByTheSword
what is living with god?...what does god do for a christian?...i never understood that...and dont give me anything mystical or magical...explain it to me please

The sex. One hasn't truly been rimmed until one has been rimmed by God.

[bipolarbear]

@ leo

what is living with god?...what does god do for a christian?...i never understood that...and dont give me anything mystical or magical...explain it to me please

It is kind of hard to define in such logicla terms. To explain it w/ words is to limit it.

*Bipolar holds up a flower and smiles

This is taken from my understnading of how Eastern Religions see it.
It is, as I understand it, an all loving nuturing and quite unexplainable force of love, and ultimate serence beauty. Happiness of the highest level. A warmth that surpasses all others. Once you attain oneness/moksha/nirvana/et al you relaize how petty everything is. But you are happy.
Just smoke pot and it'll all make sense. Or you do what Tim Leary did, and take a bunch of Acid.

[Ben Kenobi]

Because you don't believe there is a God, maybe

Cyber made the logical response in his post. Christianity is not about living up to a moral code, but about believing and trusting in God.

No different from the atheists in that regard, who distrust and reject God.

Why then hold the Christians to a standard that you do not abide by yourself?

[St Leo]

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi
So why be an atheist?

Because it's the honest thing to do. Some of us have morals, ya'kno', and don't lie to ourselves about the existence of happy-go-lucky supernatural.

[Ben Kenobi]

that Heaven was a paradise of physical pleasures, and you got anything, and everything yo ucould ever want ,and it was ll happiness, and everyone is there, and you breathe underwater, and anything cna happen, but you wnao't care, b/c you'll be too busy worshipping god.

I once had a thread on this... What would heaven mean to you?

We get glimpses, from time to time, of the real thing. That's the way I see things. Nothing that we are here is really real, but rather, shadows. We are living in the shadows, and one day we will step out into the sun.

[bipolarbear]

Cyber made the logical response in his post. Christianity is not about living up to a moral code, but about believing and trusting in God.

I think that in the end, doing what you ultimately felt in your sonscience was truly right, is what matters the msot. If that includes god, so be it.

Because it's the honest thing to do. Some of us have morals, ya'kno', and don't lie to ourselves about the existence of happy-go-lucky supernatural.

I used to feel the smae way Leo, but then i discovered something while meditating. I don't define it or limit it. I just experience it. It is wonderful, but by saying it at all, I'm removing so many other beautiful parts from it that ....its better if I stop now.

We get glimpses, from time to time, of the real thing. That's the way I see things. Nothing that we are here is really real, but rather, shadows. We are living in the shadows, and one day we will step out into the sun.

I've been arriving at the same thing. I actually see myself, spiritually going lots of places where Christainity talks about going, but on my own. I fel that personally by doing this alone, it is meaning more to me, than it ever could in a church. I understnad the value of a community, but I ahve felt the vlaue of solitary spiritual enlightenment.
OS ben, if I am following the same path as Christainity, but not accpeting god/mohammed/et al the same way, am I living in the shadows?

[Ben Kenobi]

I fel that personally by doing this alone, it is meaning more to me, than it ever could in a church. I understnad the value of a community, but I ahve felt the vlaue of solitary spiritual enlightenment.

They compliment each other. Different methods for both, but they both work to the same goal.

OS ben, if I am following the same path as Christainity, but not accpeting god/mohammed/et al the same way, am I living in the shadows?

Well, there's plenty hinging on the words, 'in the same way.'

Christianity holds a meditative tradition inside itself, so the fact that you have taken to contemplation has no bearing on the question of salvation, pro or con.

[bipolarbear]

But I'm not accepting god, or jesus, or the bible, or any of that stuff. I go w/o definition.

[Robert]

I think that in the end, doing what you ultimately felt in your sonscience was truly right, is what matters the msot. If that includes god, so be it.

yeah, that's the lie that's spread in our society these days: we can decide on good and evil. We have the power to live the right life.

It's a amazing that after thousands of years of chaos, war, hate and unrightiousness people still claim that we should do what we think we should do.

That's the 'original sin', wanting to decide over good and evil, and be as god.
But we can't. It's a lie. We screwed up. What makes you think that we can fix it?

If that includes god, so be it.

So, you reverse things.
You make the truth dependant on your opinion.
But the truth is independant. There is one truth. Pherhaps that truth is indeed that everything is true.
But that truth can as well exclude any other theory.

We don't know much about the truth, more than what has been delivered to us from the past, and of course the divine messages people claim to get these days.
But instead of listening to people who at least claim to have witnessed divine interventions from the past, we make our own truth.

And worst of all, we believe that the truth will be that what we like most, and fits most into our interpertation of the universe, and even worse, the world outside our imaginational borders.

Hey, I wish I got a porche, now I say that it's the truth that I got a porche, and if I want to have a porche I do have a porche. The truth is dependant on my opinion. And eventhough I have no clue about porches, how they work and are manufactured, I still think that my opinion about me having a porche is that superior that when I'll walk outside my door in some or another way, there will be a porche. And if you don't want me to have a porche, than I don't have one in your reality. So in my reality I do have a porche, and in yours I don't.

And anybody who claims that only one of us can be right is a stupid fundamentalist
We should get rid of those dudes asap.

And we should stick to our personal opinion, and that that's the opinion of all billion of people in the wester-world doesn't matter. It's still my personal opinion and I'm not influenced by all those people who've indocrtinated me from birth on.

Nooooo, those people who say different things than the rest of us, THEY are indoctrinated! Those fundamentalists!

Now I'm off, riding my porche!

CyberShy

[Kuciwalker]

Originally posted by CyberShy
But doing good things isn't a part of christianity either. Christianity has nothing to do with morality.

Uh, yes it does, obviously...

The bible teaches us that we are not capable of living a moral life (both christians and non-christians)
We should not try to live a moral life, we should give our lives to Jesus.

... and this is it.

The bible says how you should act. Atheism says nothing about how you should act. Atheism is nothing more than the statement "there is no god".

[Kuciwalker]

[q] Originally posted by Ben Kenobi
Cyber made the logical response in his post. Christianity is not about living up to a moral code, but about believing and trusting in God.

And part of that is obeying God, like "love your neighbor". In fact, just telling you to love God - telling you that you should love God - is a moral statement.

No different from the atheists in that regard, who distrust and reject God.

Atheists don't mistrust and reject God, they think he isn't there. Satan mistrusts and rejects God, but Satan also knows God exists (obviously).

[Kuciwalker]

Originally posted by CyberShy
yeah, that's the lie that's spread in our society these days: we can decide on good and evil. We have the power to live the right life.

If I believe that the "right thing to do" is to try and garner as much of an advantage over others as possible, then certainly I can live what I think is the right life.

Why can't we decide on good and evil? Why can this "God" do so? Are you simply reducing good and evil to God's will? If so, then wouldn't torturing and killing people be good if God commanded you to do so?

I'm sickened by people who acknowledge a Supreme Being but consider it superior to a Supreme Good.

It's a amazing that after thousands of years of chaos, war, hate and unrightiousness people still claim that we should do what we think we should do.

Strawman. Rather, there's the rather obvious and tautological claim that we think we ought to do what we think we ought to do.