I don't get the whole heaven thing

[Capt Dizle]

Originally posted by Kucinich


Is heaven merely the acceptance of God's goodness? Or is it actually being in his presence or whatever? Why can't he give us the opportunity to have all the good stuff of heaven? Or why can't he provide a fun "alternate activity" for those of us who opt out?

God's spirit fills the world but in heaven he dwells in His fullness, and those who have faith and are saved dwell there in his presence. For the opportunity is given through faith in the sacrifice of the Christ. If you opt out, you are on your own.

[Berzerker]

Btw, the reason "faith" was important back in ancient times was because people lacked the science to understand God and the nature of existence. According to myths from around the world God, or the Gods, were here interacting with people but left at some point leaving us on our own, and that's when faith became more important.

[Kuciwalker]

Originally posted by Capt Dizle
God's spirit fills the world but in heaven he dwells in His fullness, and those who have faith and are saved dwell there in his presence. For the opportunity is given through faith in the sacrifice of the Christ. If you opt out, you are on your own.

On my own where? Are you saying hell is just a sort of limbo, where I sit in a sort of sensory-deprivation tank or something?

Plus, why does God demand that I worship him in order to get the good stuff? Isn't that a little childish?

[MrFun]

Originally posted by Kucinich


I'm an atheist, I'm just posing a question so that I can prove that being religious is stupid.

There -- I think this is what you meant in explaining the purpose of your thread.

[Robert]

Is heaven merely the acceptance of God's goodness?

The new earth (no christian goes to 'heaven') is for those who accept the truth about humanity and God's intervention. Everybody who accepts that he cannot become good by himself, but only by divine intervention will be made good by divine intervention.

Of course, somebody who doesn't believe that God is good doesn't want to be 'changed' by God, since he doesn't trust God. I trust God, I want him to change me.

Or is it actually being in his presence or whatever?

God will live on the new earth among us.
As he was with 'us' in the paradise. That's what we are made for, to be compagnions of God.

Why can't he give us the opportunity to have all the good stuff of heaven?

Because he already gave us, but since we are no good we messed it up. As long as we're no good, God can give us the good things, but we can't handle it.
God needs to renew us.

If you don't want to be renewed, you can stick to the person you are. But don't ask for the good stuff. You can't handle it.

It's as with a computer.
If you have an old computer, but want to play the newest game anyway, you won't be able.
You can try to get a better computer, but if you're a complete rookie, you can try but you can't achieve it.
You need to trust your computer supplier to renew your computer, so you can play the game
The problem is that we, humans, are either in denial that our computer isn't good enough, or trying to fix it ourselves. While the computer supplier wants to help us for free! He's knocking on our door.

Plus, why does God demand that I worship him in order to get the good stuff? Isn't that a little childish?

This question has already been commented on earlier in this thread. Did you read your own thread?

I'm an atheist, I'm just posing a question so that I can prove that being religious is stupid.

I agree, religion is stupid. Christianity is not a religion (eventough much people, even christians think)
The christian faith tells us the truth about our situation. It's not a 'way of life to achive something'

unfortunately most people think so

[Berzerker]

"Heaven" is the asteroid belt, or more importantly, it's where "the Creator" passes through the solar system at perihelion. That's why the "cross" is so important in mythology, "Nibiru", the name given this planet by the Sumerians means "the planet of the crossing". The cross symbolises a highly eccentic ellipse crossing a circle at a virtually perpendicular angle...

[Impaler[WrG]]

I fell that "Religion" as in a group of people, customs, rituals, buildings ect ect that exist to indoctrinate the youth with a set of ridgid belifes is the ultimate Evill.

How many wars have been though because of ridgid befief systems about god or the afterlife? How many cities destroyed, people killed or maimed, people worked to death and other alowed to grow fat off their labors all in the name of a Religion.

Now how much evil has been done in the world because a man doupted what someone else told him. Because he though first, because he found out for himself what to think. NONE I say!! It has been the key to every fredom we enjoy, the foundation of all knowlage and social progress no less.

Doupt is truely what will make the world better, but it will not bring us the bliss that most desire. Doupt is by its very nature distressing, it naws at you, drives you, keeps you from being comfortable. Look at all the great Doupter of History Socrates, did he say happyness was the greatest goal? No, it was self examination and doupt that was our goal. As he said "the unexamind life is not worth living" and this is what we need to do endlessly examine everything around us and in us and never have the vanity to think we have found an untimate answer, the doupt must always remain with us.

I dont consider Jesus to be devine, rather he was a Profit like many before and since. Basicaly a man who examined the world around him and came up with an idea and dedicated his life to spreading that idea. His idea was one of the most significant in history and not suprisingly he like most Profits got killed by the athority figures of the day. Its unfortunat that a "Religion" has usurped and encrusted itself around many of histories greatest Profits and acted to distort their ideas or deflect people from them.

[Robert]

How many wars have been though because of ridgid befief systems about god or the afterlife?

yeah, that's what most people say these days.
It's a very shortsighted thing to say. And it proves that todays people are indoctrinated with modern theories. It doesn't matter if these theories are true or not.

Many wars have been fought. Some over racial differences, others over power and indeed others over religious issues. The thing is that we, humans, tend to make war over things. No matter what the subject is.

It's not as if people stop making war if they lose their religion.

But if you examine it very well, you would see that christianity is against making war over religion.
Any person that tries to force someone else to live to his faith can't be a christian (or at least doesn't know what he's believing)

The christian message is a personal message. You can't force anyone to live to that message. You have to believe it yourself.

[Kuciwalker]

Cybershy, you're right - it's not that Christianity is bad, it's that there've never actually been Christians. There never will be, either.

[Ben Kenobi]

it's that there've never actually been Christians.

Christians do bad things. So do atheists.

If this is your standard, why are you an atheist?

Secondly, there has been a proper Christian who inspires all the rest of us.

[Kuciwalker]

But doing good things isn't a part of atheism. Atheism has nothing to do with morality. Thus, there have been atheists.

[Berzerker]

Why doesn't atheism have anything to do with morality? Right and wrong require neither a god nor the absence of a god...

[MrFun]

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi

Secondly, there has been a proper Christian who inspires all the rest of us.

BK -- your high praise of me is an embarrassment.

[Ben Kenobi]

But doing good things isn't a part of atheism.

So why be an atheist?

[Ben Kenobi]

BK -- your high praise of me is an embarrassment.

Where's the nail marks?