I don't get the whole heaven thing

[DeathByTheSword]

The question should be one of belief in the eternal soul. Is the soul eternal? If so, then we as men certainly have no knowledge or power over it. Therefore, of course, we cannot begin to judge eternity. Hell is absence from God, a punishment in its own right, not levied because of our behavior but inherited by birthright because of the decision of original sin.

why is absence of god a punishment? what does god do? i am not trying to get people mad...but well what does god do?

[Victor Galis]

Well if all Hell is is the absence of God, then I certainly wouldn't mind going there.

[Capt Dizle]

Originally posted by DeathByTheSword

if he want fellowship then why idea that some will go the heaven to be with god...and some will not...this creates a breach between humans...so that fellowship with each other isnt a possiblity...

The breach was created by humans and it is our nature to be contentious. The human race was created by God and we wandered off. God is best understood as the essence of good and holiness and we, as decendants of the original sin, cannot be reunitied with God in his eternal state. The good news is that God provided as way for us to be redeemed from our state as outcasts, that being the Christ. We must only have faith, as children would. That is at once both elusive and readily at hand.

Everything that we are screams that we cannot have faith in an unseen God. We revolt at the thought that nothing we can ever achieve matters in the least, our fate is based on faith and faith alone. A child, even those with limited mental ability can come to God through faith. In many ways it is easier for such to do so, as the more capable we are the less likely we are to accept that we are powerless in this the most important question of our lives. In fact, it is the only question that really matters in the end and it is perfectly HUMAN that we struggle to accept the conditions of reunion with God. We want things on our terms (which is the trait that separated us from God in the beginning).

[DeathByTheSword]

but if god is onmipresent...why did he create such f*ckups like us then? and which of the 2 is it...do we have free will or are we controlled by fate?

[Capt Dizle]

Originally posted by DeathByTheSword

why is absence of god a punishment? what does god do? i am not trying to get people mad...but well what does god do?

God is good. Make a list of all the things that are bad that you can think of and imagine a place where none of those things exist. Because only good exists in God's presence. When our souls return to God we will be transformed into beings that no longer have the capacity to habor all of the negative emotions and thoughts that mark our existence here on earth. People say that religion is brainwashing, well, coming to faith in God is much more than that. It is soulwashing, an act beyond our capabilities and one that happens not wholely at the time of our conversion, but is fully realized only at the time we leave the flesh and begin to dwell with God.

The benefits of being "saved" that we enjoy here on earth are real but not totally different than those enjoyed by adopting and practicing a host of belief systems and philosophies. If one wants to live better and be a better person as we judge those things then we certainly do not need God to achieve that. After all, all of our on constructs are within our perview. If we want to judge ourselves by a standard that outlaws, for example, murder, then we can either not murder or simply change the standard to allow murder, perhaps in varying circumstances.

One can never change God's law, and this is one way that we can judge ourselves, if we indulge ourselves in behaviors that God has commanded us not to do, do we grieve at our behavior or do we seek to justify it? We will sin as long as we are in the flesh, but our reaction to that sin is the best evidence of the condition of our hearts. If we have accepted the Christ we have a new conscience.

[DeathByTheSword]

but cant people create all that good by themselves? is it just believing in god, something not-material or proveble, that makes us saved? if that is so god is asking complete and utterly loyality and faith from humans. then we would be servants to him/her and not childern of god

[Impaler[WrG]]

Humm, the absence of God would be an abscense of any controling or guiding athority but also a lack of harmony. Esentialy your going it alone, a free agent in essence. Danta probly had it best when the devil says "its better to rule in Hell then to serve in Heaven". The Devil then is the ultimate loner having comited to total independence.

So your choice is between a harmonious yet subservient relationship with the creator or an independent but chaotic and restless existence.

Much like the Garden of Eden being a harmonious place but one in which their God rules all. The fruit of knowlage gives man the tools for independence and precludes him from staying in his childlike state.

If your a very independently minded person perhaps Hell is preferable to you, the trials and tribulations of this world give us the drive to succed, grow and strive. All thouse pasions would be calmed in heaven we would loss our drive and become "soft". I also think you would be keept ignorant in Heaven as that would be blissfull. Basicly Heaven = Eternal Nurturing Infancy, Hell = Independent Maturity. Not an easy desision.

It seems to me that going to Heaven or Hell will depend on how much you want harmony vs how much you want independence. How "good" or "Evil" you are in the classic sense might not have any bearing, Goodness could simply be itsown reward and Evil itsown punishment.

The only thing I realy belive in is that everyone will get what they deserve in the end be it Heaven, Hell, Purgatory or the soul snuffing out like a Candel in the wind we all exist which is in itself mindboggling.

[Capt Dizle]

Originally posted by DeathByTheSword
but if god is onmipresent...why did he create such f*ckups like us then? and which of the 2 is it...do we have free will or are we controlled by fate?

Two tough questions. To the first I would say that I have worked it out in my mind that it would be presumptous of me to try to decide why God is like he is. If I ask God why this or why that then I believe that is no more than repeating the original sin. We have to accept who we are and our nature by faith just as we have to accept our salvation by faith. We certainly have sufficient evidence at hand to see that we are F***-ups. We just need to stop blaming God for what we are long enough to look for the way of redemption that he has prepared for us. And, while many reject the concept of free will as preposterous, it must be so else life is a moot point and we might as well all be pirates. I accept that life is not meaningless by faith and I found that faith in myself. I believe that is a gift God gives each of us. Look for it. And remember that God will not require anything of you beyond faith. The work of salvation is God's work and He will do it when you have prepared yourself to receive Him.

[The Emperor Fabulous]

Berzerker:

Earth is called the 3rd planet because of it's proximity to the Sun, but if we look at the solar system from the outside, Earth is the 7th planet - and that is why the number 7 is so prevalent in ancient mythology and religion. From the 7 "eyes" of Brahma to the Incan tablet of creation depicting their "genesis" to virtually every other culture, the number 7 symbolises either the Earth or creation. So, Earth is the 7th planet and there are 6 planets beyond Earth. The Sumerians depicted Venus as an 8 pointed "star" and Mars as a 6 pointed "star".

Uh...Pluto was discovered last century. Are you saying that all these cultures knew about it and all forgot?

[Capt Dizle]

Originally posted by Impaler[WrG]
Humm, the absence of God would be an abscense of any controling or guiding athority but also a lack of harmony. Esentialy your going it alone, a free agent in essence. Danta probly had it best when the devil says "its better to rule in Hell then to serve in Heaven". The Devil then is the ultimate loner having comited to total independence.

So your choice is between a harmonious yet subservient relationship with the creator or an independent but chaotic and restless existence.

Much like the Garden of Eden being a harmonious place but one in which their God rules all. The fruit of knowlage gives man the tools for independence and precludes him from staying in his childlike state.

If your a very independently minded person perhaps Hell is preferable to you, the trials and tribulations of this world give us the drive to succed, grow and strive. All thouse pasions would be calmed in heaven we would loss our drive and become "soft". I also think you would be keept ignorant in Heaven as that would be blissfull. Basicly Heaven = Eternal Nurturing Infancy, Hell = Independent Maturity. Not an easy desision.

It seems to me that going to Heaven or Hell will depend on how much you want harmony vs how much you want independence. How "good" or "Evil" you are in the classic sense might not have any bearing, Goodness could simply be itsown reward and Evil itsown punishment.

The only thing I realy belive in is that everyone will get what they deserve in the end be it Heaven, Hell, Purgatory or the soul snuffing out like a Candel in the wind we all exist which in itself mindboggling.

There is a lot of good thinking in your post. While I might not agree with your conclusions I can testify that in my search for truth I traveled those roads and I wish for you a fruitful journey.

[Capt Dizle]

Originally posted by Victor Galis
Well if all Hell is is the absence of God, then I certainly wouldn't mind going there.

We were born into a world outside God's presence, but not outside of his influence. I would prefer moving in the opposite direction than you Victor, having concluded that the fruits of mankind's effort will not create a place in which I would desire to spend eternity.

[Bereta_Eder]

As the scriptures says you have to actually believe with all your heart the way you contact yourself. So heaven is not a prize if you do. More like what's coming to you if you think feel act a certain way. If one behaves a certain way only in order to go to heaven he's not doing what god allegendly wants so he won't go.

[Impaler[WrG]]

Thanks, as I said I belive everyone gets what they deserve in this world and "maybe" the next.

You have faith which is important to you, I have my doupt which is important to me, to each his own. You have faith in your faith I have doupt in my doupt, an endless conundrum.

P.S. That stuff about the Firmements, planets and such reminds me of Immanuel Velikovsky. Basicly Psudo Science used to try to justify matters of pure faith. Basicaly an atempt to "half-belive" and "half-doupt" a position I find contemtable. I can atleast respect faith or ratinalize doupt but nothing in-between. Pick ONE faith OR doupt their is no middle ground!

[Capt Dizle]

Originally posted by DeathByTheSword
but cant people create all that good by themselves? is it just believing in god, something not-material or proveble, that makes us saved? if that is so god is asking complete and utterly loyality and faith from humans. then we would be servants to him/her and not childern of god

I do not believe that people can create good. We have the capacity to turn from obvious evilness and adopt better behavior but in doing so we just substitute a lesser evil for the greater in the end.

We are "saved" by the supernatural act of God after we have repented of the notion that we are good and submit to His will. If you want to conclude that is submission to servitude, then I can understand the line of thought. We are getting into an issue of vocabulary here and frankly, I am not nearly capable of expressing things more clearly. I hope you will continue to ask these questions not only here, but through reading and contemplation. The truth is there for each of us and it is a personal journey. All any of us can do is offer our testimony. You can't go to a gas station and buy a road map to heaven because faith is not a road in temporal terms.

[Bereta_Eder]

It's tricky.