I think Denmark is right about this.

[Gangerolf]

Anyone read "Why I am not a Muslim" by Ibn Warraq? It's written by a (ex-)muslim and basically it says that Islam is f.u.b.a.r.

I think the Western world should do more to fight Islamism, at least in our own countries. The question is how? I hope and think it can be done within a democratic frame work.

[Ben Kenobi]

How about not allowing people to teach their children crazy bile?

Well, for some crazy reason we have this concept called 'freedom of religion'.

Ever hear of it?

I seem to remember such protections being denied to Jews in Germany, and nothing bad ever came out of that.

[Tripledoc]

Well, from what I have read the law is already being criticized because it allows 'thought control'. That is a Muslim preacher is no longer allowed to refer to certain passages of the Koran, which might be considered inappropriate.

Instead I think that if the authorities really want to follow through on this they should rip out pages from the Old Testament, The New Testamenat, and the Koran.

For instance if a Muslim preacher teaches that Christians are bad, that does not neccesarily mean that the listener will bomb them, no more than if a Christian teaches that Muslims are bad (which BTW has happened many times over), the Christians will bomb them ( which they have).

The end game will be that Marxist historians will be banned, because after all it is thought that all they want to do is to kill Capitalists.

Remember first they came after the Jews, and we did not protest, then they came after the Communists, and we did not protest, then they came after me, but there were then no one left to protest.

[VetLegion]

Can girls wear headscarfs in Denmark?

[Monk]

Originally posted by VetLegion
Can girls wear headscarfs in Denmark?

Yeah. And you're not going to belive this, but it's even allowed... in school...

You can't even fire somebody on the grounds that she wears a scarf.

[Ramo]

It's sad that so many people believe that it's ok to oppress people one disagrees with.

[yavoon]

Originally posted by Ramo
It's sad that so many people believe that it's ok to oppress people one disagrees with.

or oppress ppl out of fear ala japanese internment camps.

[bipolarbear]

I hate to sound like that Limbaugh ripoff that is btter known as maddox, but what stupid ass idea! How are you going to determine if they advocate violence? Ask them REAALLLLLLY nicely? What the hell? If the all that crap that newsspeak reported on about sleeper cells is true, then what is going to stop them from lying about their intentions anywhere else?! Oooh, maybe they'll have a sudden change of heart, and the wieght of their conscience will make it impossible for them to lie! It'll be just like in The Tell Tale Heart!! Ingenious! Four Marx(yes that was intentional) to whoever came up with that idea!

[Spiffor]

Az:

As much as I'd like to see religion removed from this planet for good, I quite disagree with you. It's not in the nature of Islam to be worse than the rest. For several centuries during their golden age, the Muslims were the most modern, most flourishing, most trailblazing people in the world, wwhereas the Christians were in the darkest obscurantism. Even though things are no different, it doesn't mean there is an innate ability in Islam to be worse than the rest.

I think we cannot and should not exclude worship. What we should do, however, is to monitor the political implications of this worship, especially the political agitators who get the help of the little voices in people's heads.

I agree with Laz on this one: if we consistently reject our Muslims (or any other rejected minority for that matter), we'll end up antagonizing them and radicalizing them. I am all for integrating them, but if by "integration" you mean "replacement of their old culture by the local one", then I think it is doomed to failure in this day and age of internet, of satellite TV, etc.

What we Europeans need to accept, is that one can be both Muslim AND French / German / Italian / Spaniard / Dane / whatever. I have encountered many French people in my hometown who still feel "not at home" where there are mosques, where people celebrate the Aid el-kebir, where you see halal meatshops etc.

It took us time to accept Jews as being real French citizens. With the population pressure, we obviously need to accept Muslims the same, without pointing our fingers at them on the grounds they are Muslim. I sure hope we won't need an holocaust to that effect.

[Bugs ****ing Bunny]

These things take time. Go back 1000 years and the natural state for Christian states was what we would now call violent fundamentalism.

I have a number of muslim friends who pose no threat to anybody. Each generation becomes a little less radical, just like we Jesus-botherers, in fact. Trying to kick off another crusade will set the process back a few hundred years.

[Dinner]

Originally posted by Sava
this is basically a DUH policy

hey you know what!??! we shouldn't allow mass-murderers to immigrate to our coutnry! OMFG@ I'm ABRILLIATN!

I agree this is a DUH policy. The sad thing is many western countries let in and continue to let in all sorts of hate spewing people. Look at how long it took Norway to get ride of one jihadist imam. Look at how many people accussed Norway of being racist for trying to make a violent terror supporter and self confessed murder go back to the country he came from.

[Az]

Originally posted by Lazarus and the Gimp


Wrong on both counts. If you're going to attempt to work me out, you neec to make more effort. Try again from a different perspective.

work you out?

Congratulations, btw- you've progressed from "I don't want just my own culture, I want universal values" to at least admitting your cultural chauvinism. That's a step forward

Where's that? Or do you consider my adherance to the values of personal freedoms shauvenistic? I am sorry, then, just call me Mr. Shauvenist. If you think that I am going to respect other people's opinions just because they exist, sorry.

As much as I'd like to see religion removed from this planet for good, I quite disagree with you. It's not in the nature of Islam to be worse than the rest. For several centuries during their golden age, the Muslims were the most modern, most flourishing, most trailblazing people in the world, wwhereas the Christians were in the darkest obscurantism. Even though things are no different, it doesn't mean there is an innate ability in Islam to be worse than the rest.

OMFG, it seems that people have problems with reading comprehension. I am not saying that Islam is the worst religion. I am saying that religion is bad, and the muslims are the only ones from the monotheists seriously clinging on to theirs. some Americans make me worry too, though, but no nearly as much as the pov of the average muslim person.

I think we cannot and should not exclude worship. What we should do, however, is to monitor the political implications of this worship, especially the political agitators who get the help of the little voices in people's heads.

Hey, I never said that an adult individual cannot worship whoever the **** they want to, it's their spare time, They can do whatever they want to.

a) They have no right to try and change the rules of our society, just because their imaginary friends said so.
b) They have no right to infest the brains of their kids with that filth.

It took us time to accept Jews as being real French citizens. With the population pressure, we obviously need to accept Muslims the same, without pointing our fingers at them on the grounds they are Muslim. I sure hope we won't need an holocaust to that effect.

The difference is, Jews DID integrate into French society on the french society's terms, the moment they were declared equal. The muslims want their own terms, and the average french citizen doesn't feel like it.

Laz:

These things take time. Go back 1000 years and the natural state for Christian states was what we would now call violent fundamentalism.

Yes. but the change of the european society from a deeply religious one to an almost completely secular one was ground-breaking. This will not be the case with Islam. It's not as if secular society is something unheard of. It's right next door. They're constantly exposed to it, but see it through a filter of deep conservatism, and superiority. I am glad that you agree that this change is necessary, but do we just let this pot stir itself, and wait for a thousand years of a wrong, and opressive society?

I have a number of muslim friends who pose no threat to anybody. Each generation becomes a little less radical, just like we Jesus-botherers, in fact. Trying to kick off another crusade will set the process back a few hundred years.

I never said that all muslims pose a threat, or that anyone should go on a crusade. I am saying that our own societies must be protected against this scourge. the problem is not in the individuals, it's in the dynamics of their societies.

[Pekka]

Originally posted by Chemical Ollie
Denmark has got some harsh critics from the Swedish Social Democrat goverment recently, due to the new immigration policies. But I can't see why Göran Persson at the same time is so silent about Finland. Denmark is trying to introduce an immigrant policy similar to what Finland always had. I remember when I lived in Finland 10 years ago, and heard on the radio news:

Finland will accept refugees. It is 200 people from former Yugoslavia who will arrive early next year...

This was told in September, at a period when 200 Yugo refugees arrived to Sweden with every ferry from Germany.

True. But the general consensus is, people don't want many refugees here. People tend to think 'oh great, they are here to spend our tax money, this will do only harm to our current problems'. We believe in helping people in their countries (though we don't help them in their countries) rather than taking them in (which we don't).

Could something be done? I'm sure we could, but we won't I guess. I think the problem behind this is taxation. It brings the worst out of people. People read every news story or tabloid where it says a refugee got free dental care, free house, monthly support money etc. It pisses off people, because there are so many unemployeed. Is it their fault we have unemployment so high? No.. there are so few refugees here and immigrants, it doesn't play a factor IMO. But people still think it does.

What to do with radicals who are already EU members? Throw them in jail like we do. We have centers for refugees which they are kept in, to wait the decision if they can stay or not, which is likely to be NO. If YES, they'll get in, and some of the people who we see as problems, they will spend this process in jail. Not jail where there are criminals, but old jail, just for them. It's not very nice, and certainly not PC, but that's the way it goes here.

Even with such low acceptance of refugees, people still think many times that it's too much. If a refugee does crime, it will be in the newspapers for sure, I think it speaks for some attitudes. I wouldn't call it racism though. I'd call it jealousy because of the high taxation, that makes people ready to trash anyone who spends that money. Just like we hate rich people and give them 170 000 euro fine for speeding.

As for immigrants who come here to do a career, I wouldn't say there is any problems getting in. If you have a job, you'll get in for sure no problems. If you are EU citizen, you get in anyway.

[Dinner]

Finland could solve it's problems be reducing taxation and spending.

[Pekka]

Yes it could. But the old commies don't want that. I think it calls for Supercitizen.

The economists etc have warned about this a long time, about the taxes. Every year experts say this is bad bad bad, and it will soon be even worse if something radical is not done. But we choose to go with the horse that lead us here, and not realizing it's time to put it out of its misery and take a new, younger and faster horse with perfect 20/20 vision!