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California voters: Do you support prop 57 and 58?

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  • Originally posted by Giancarlo

    But neither are comparable in any other sense.
    Yes: both are examples of government legislating based on morals rather than crime. Government and its associates don't want someone ingesting marijuana based on a moral repulsion to the very idea of it, so it's made illegal and lies, damned lies, and far-fetched statistics are employed to scare the populace into agreement. Similarly, government and its associates don't want a male 'ingesting' another male's genitals in gany method, so they employ untruths or rexaggerations as scare tactics to keep the populace in agreement: Homosexuals shall never be allowed to do anything together because it will result in your offspring suffering molestation, or THEY MAY EVEN BECOME HOMOSEXUALS THEMSELVES!!1! (scary music goes here).

    Government should make *crimes* illegal -- crimes in which there is a victim and a victimizer; they should not legislate morality.
    the good reverend

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    • This is ****ing hilarious...
      “I give you a new commandment, that you love one another. Just as I have loved you, you also should love one another. By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another.”
      - John 13:34-35 (NRSV)

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      • exactly rev. just as there is no victim with using drugs, there is no victim with being gay.
        "Everything for the State, nothing against the State, nothing outside the State" - Benito Mussolini

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        • Originally posted by rev


          Yes: both are examples of government legislating based on morals rather than crime. Government and its associates don't want someone ingesting marijuana based on a moral repulsion to the very idea of it, so it's made illegal and lies, damned lies, and far-fetched statistics are employed to scare the populace into agreement. Similarly, government and its associates don't want a male 'ingesting' another male's genitals in gany method, so they employ untruths or rexaggerations as scare tactics to keep the populace in agreement: Homosexuals shall never be allowed to do anything together because it will result in your offspring suffering molestation, or THEY MAY EVEN BECOME HOMOSEXUALS THEMSELVES!!1! (scary music goes here).

          Government should make *crimes* illegal -- crimes in which there is a victim and a victimizer; they should not legislate morality.
          You haven't changed. You still are the same old joke you always have been.
          For there is [another] kind of violence, slower but just as deadly, destructive as the shot or the bomb in the night. This is the violence of institutions -- indifference, inaction, and decay. This is the violence that afflicts the poor, that poisons relations between men because their skin has different colors. - Bobby Kennedy (Mindless Menance of Violence)

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          • whos the 'victim' of drug usage? whos the 'victim' of gayness?
            "Everything for the State, nothing against the State, nothing outside the State" - Benito Mussolini

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            • Victim of drug usage = you.

              Homosexuality is like heterosexuality.. drug addiction is not.
              For there is [another] kind of violence, slower but just as deadly, destructive as the shot or the bomb in the night. This is the violence of institutions -- indifference, inaction, and decay. This is the violence that afflicts the poor, that poisons relations between men because their skin has different colors. - Bobby Kennedy (Mindless Menance of Violence)

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              • and what if i dont consider myself a victim of drug use? how can i be a victim when i voluntairly use it?
                "Everything for the State, nothing against the State, nothing outside the State" - Benito Mussolini

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Giancarlo


                  You haven't changed. You still are the same old joke you always have been.
                  Well, for one, I've never claimed to have "changed", so don't put words into my mouth.

                  Secondly, all I did was reply to your argument with an illustrated standpoint of my own, and all you can do is retaliate with a personal attack.

                  I'll let that speak for itself.
                  the good reverend

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                  • For some drugs (in some situations) the only 'victim' is the user (and they are free to determine whether they are a victim or not IMO). For other drugs there definitely are victims who are not the ones chosing to use the drug or not. In some cases it is the taxpayer, having to support the user or their children. In other cases it's victims of violent crime by those under the influence.

                    http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/abstract/satsfp97.htm (picture from the pdf)

                    I'll agree that these statistics aren't too meaningful (based on the criminal's word), but they represent the best collection of data I could find on drug use and violent crime. Anyone have a better source of data?

                    From personal experience I can attest to the effect of drugs on a user's agressiveness, and have been attacked by friends under the influence.
                    Attached Files

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                    • Shameful, isn't it Aeson?
                      “I give you a new commandment, that you love one another. Just as I have loved you, you also should love one another. By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another.”
                      - John 13:34-35 (NRSV)

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Giancarlo


                        Legalize drugs? In your dreams. Why the hell should we do that? So people can sell their **** freely in the streets without getting arrested? And maybe some cops want to work in narcotics. Several cops I know here in LA like the job they do.
                        Legalize drug is the best way to kill the drug catural. If cocain was legal 1 kg will be worth 6 dollar instead 30000 dollar a kg. Heron will be worth 10 dollar a kg instead of 1000,000 dollar a kg.
                        By the year 2100 AD over half of the world population will be follower of Islam.

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                        • cool stats. interesting how drug consupmtion is less likely to make you do violent crimes, since a lot of drugs chill you out, while they are more likely to make you rob houses. alkie seems to have a differnet effect, and makes people more beliigerent.
                          "Everything for the State, nothing against the State, nothing outside the State" - Benito Mussolini

                          Comment


                          • If cocain was legal 1 kg will be worth 6 dollar instead 30000 dollar a kg. Heron will be worth 10 dollar a kg instead of 1000,000 dollar a kg.
                            I'll say this. I understand the positions that people have on marijuana legalisation. But legalising cocaine or heroin? People who want that are half wit idiots who do not have an argument for such a stupid argument.

                            And just ask yourself this: Who can buy drugs at such high prices? Fewer can. And your numbers are bogus. Also... legalising it will bring in an influx of supply, thus cancelling out any loss in sales for the illegal drug trade.
                            For there is [another] kind of violence, slower but just as deadly, destructive as the shot or the bomb in the night. This is the violence of institutions -- indifference, inaction, and decay. This is the violence that afflicts the poor, that poisons relations between men because their skin has different colors. - Bobby Kennedy (Mindless Menance of Violence)

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                            • Originally posted by Lawrence of Arabia
                              if we legalized drugs, there would be no more overcrowding of jails in california. then we could say a lot of money. not to mention closing the narcotics division of all the police stations and transfering those guys to real crime divisions - like homicide, rape, etc.
                              That's wrong. I saw a study which showed less then 5% of the people who were in jail were there solely because of drugs. It's a myth to say that legalizing drugs will solce jail over crowding because California already releases most no violent offenders to rehab programs due to over crowding.
                              Last edited by Dinner; February 24, 2004, 05:27.
                              Try http://wordforge.net/index.php for discussion and debate.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Lawrence of Arabia
                                cool stats. interesting how drug consupmtion is less likely to make you do violent crimes, since a lot of drugs chill you out, while they are more likely to make you rob houses. alkie seems to have a differnet effect, and makes people more beliigerent.
                                Well, if you assume that on average, every person in the US is on illicit drugs more than 30% of the time, then you can make a case for using drugs to reduce violent crime rates. I very highly doubt that though, as only 8% of the population uses illicit drugs regularly, and while a good chunk of the remainder may use illicit drugs occasionally or once in a while, it would be virtually impossible for the 8% to pull the 'average time on drugs' up to 100% for 30% of the population (or any equivalent). Given the lack of data in this area, I don't think any hard conclusions can be drawn, so didn't make that assertion. It's too much assumption either way really.

                                If you do just go by the numbers though, alcohol has more of an impact on crime than drugs. Given that alcohol's effects are similar to many illicit drugs, you would have to assume it is in large part the ease of obtaining alcohol (and perhaps even it's legality) that results in it's higher costs to society. This would disagree with an argument that legalization of drugs with similar effects as being in society's best interest.

                                I wish there was more defined data though. (anyone know of a source?) To show things well, we need comparable counts of who uses what (lumping all illicit drugs together is bordering on useless) in the criminal (violent or otherwise non-drug violation related) and general population. Then any discrepancies could be made much clearer.

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