My big problem with Christianity

[CharlesBHoff]

Originally posted by Ming
"Could" is the operative word. While you consider them a reliable source, again, there is still no proof. Just a tale... a story... one biased point of view... not anything more... and no proof that it actually happened the way one version happens to claim.
It is just as likely that the roman soldiers had pity on him, let him down, and made up a story that he died so they wouldn't get in trouble... as good as your proof

May-be the Roman Officate order him him taken down while alife as the Roman Officate realisn he make than error. Some histion went over the Roman Empire record for that eras of history found no proof of than man claiming to the the Jewish Messiah was ever crudeifry by the Roman.

[Ben Kenobi]

cinch:

1. It had an appealing message: forgiveness and all that.

How can there be forgiveness without Christ? How can we be saved, if Christ did not rise? You need to read more of Paul. He argues this in 1 Corinthians.

and also the ruling classes who could use it to passify the population

So why did they spend 300 years martyring believers if Christianity would pacify the masses?

and justify wars (like most religions).

Why would they need Christianity in order to do this?

They were misled.

By whom? The apparition of Jesus?

2. We don't know that they knew he was going to come back to life.

Read my statement. They believed he was the promised Messiah, and that he would not die in the first place. You are very correct that they did not believe Christ would come back from the dead. Such a resurrection was unprecedented.

Who knows how much they knew/believed?

We do have some independent records of what Jews would believe at that time. We also have their own testimonies.

That's not necessarily true. You can believe someone to have supernatural powers, and still want to help them when they're in trouble.

If you help him, he's not God. God should not need your help. God can rescue himself.

Matthew 27:40

"those who passed by hurled insults at him, shaking their heads and saying, 'You who are going to destroy the temple and build it in three days, save yourself! Come down from the cross if you are the Son of God!' "

And again.

Matthew 27:42-3

" 'He saved others,' they said, 'but he can't save himself! He's the King of Israel! Let him come down now from the cross and we will believe in him. He trusts in God. Let God rescue him.' "

OR maybe the apostles wanted to let him die, but Nicodaemus and Joey of Arimathea went up and took him down, for they knew less of his 'plans'. Plenty o' options here.

Ummm. Guards. Angry Jews. Lots of passerby. No chance of getting to the cross.

3. Paul was an able, slick trickster who co-opted Christ's message for his own needs.

Safe, comfortable, prosperous, Jew becomes tortured, beaten and persecuted Christian. Real smart career move for a slick trickster.

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi
How can there be forgiveness without Christ? How can we be saved, if Christ did not rise?

Simple: forget God for two seconds, and think in terms of "forgiveness among humans". The behaviour that is "showing the other cheek" does not require you to believe in an all-powerful creator: it is purely societal.

[Asher]

I think it's quite clear that Ben is incapable of rational thought about this matter, his mind is clearly tainted and arguing with him is hopeless.

You should all have some fun with him instead, naive people can be a blast.

[CharlesBHoff]

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi


No. Try 25-30 years for the synoptics, and 60 years for John.

Heck, the very first manuscript we have dates back to the 2nd Century.

http://www.bible.org/netbible/manuscr.htm

Early Christian was decide into many different cults. Some didnot believe in the three God in One deal. In Egpty they recover in the 1950's old written of the cult of Christian that didnot agree with Cathorism(both Roman and Greek) beilfs. I was talking about the officate verson of the bibble which didnot happen untril 400 year as Christ death. Did you ever hear of the Lost Books of the Bibble. They didnot put every written material of that time about Christ in the Bibble. When the first officate Quran was printed there where still thousand's of people around who memoryism everything the Founder of Islam ever said, includeing some of his wifes. One then was recognite as than leading religish schoralty of her time. They read the Officiate copy of the Quran an they would have notice any change in it.

[Ben Kenobi]

"forgiveness among humans".

Okay. Assuming God does not exist, why should I forgive anyone? Why not kick their butt and be done with it?

The behaviour that is "showing the other cheek" does not require you to believe in an all-powerful creator: it is purely societal.

Why should I let 'em hit me? Again, why don't I kick their butts for their obvious insults!

Edit:

Darn autocensor. Where are you when I need you?

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by Asher
You should all have some fun with him instead, naive people can be a blast.

There are smart believers, and I'm still hoping Ben will become one. All this requires is that Ben drops the close-mindedness, of seeing God everywhere.

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi
Okay. Assuming God does not exist, why should I forgive anyone? Why not kick their asses and be done with it?

Hmmmm, let me see.
I assume God doesn't exist, yet I tend to forgive people for their offenses That must be because I want to enter heaven after my death.

[Ben Kenobi]

Hey Spiff:

How many commandments does Christ offer? Two or one?

[Ben Kenobi]

I was talking about the officate verson of the bibble which didnot happen untril 400 year as Christ death

I see. Not really a fair comparison though. All the books they had, they just had to put them together and decide which ones were canonical and which were not. The Q'uran simply burned all books that did not agree with the official version.

[CharlesBHoff]

Originally posted by Thriller


Not such a big deal there. I think the idea was that god was testing Abraham, yada yada yada.

How about this one: God's representative on earth is the Pope, who is therefore infallible. I guess that includes all the 5 year old popes throughout the middle-ages, the popes who murdered their predecessors to gain power, and the homosexual paedophilic popes who couldn't help themselves? Not to mention the fact that at various times throughout history there have been multiple popes at the same time claiming to be the god's representative.

Hmmm, maybe that's why Henry VIII decided to get rid of catholicism. Oh no I forgot....that was for a much holier reason....he wanted to get divorced!

There was one Pope who die of than heart attack while haveing than sexual relateship with than married woman in either the very late roman empire or very early dark age.He acturaly die in the woman bed and arms while inside of her.

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi
How many commandments does Christ offer? Two or one?

I don't know, but I'd say two, among the lines of "love each other" and "love God". But I fail how is the second relevant to the first one.

You'll tell me that I'm not consistent as I (and many fellow agnostics who acknowledge that Christianty has great humanist values) accept only part of Christ's message.
And I would reply you "bull****": I take parts of one's arguments everywhere.
For instance, I think Marx analysis of historical dynamism is right, except that I don't believe in his belief that historical dynamism will end with communism.
For instance, I agree with the French Communist Party's programme, except for the European portion of it as I think it goes entirely in the wrong way.
For instance, I think Civ3 has brought great things to the Civ franchise, but the lack of unit-trading sucks, etc.

When I forgive someone about some offense, I am not thinking at all of Christ or of God. They simply do not enter my motivations at all, and I couldn't care less about what other things the great spreader of this idea (read Jesus) said.
How do you explain that?

[Ben Kenobi]

Silly I am? Crazy I am? God see I in all people. Made people He did in his image. Thus love people, also love God.

[Spiffor]

You still haven't explained how forgiveness could possibly be a value without thinking of Jesus or God.

So far, you've only explained why Christians are supposed to be forgiving, well, good for you.
But you haven't explained why forgiveness is exclusively binded to Christianty.

[Ben Kenobi]

Tired I am. Sleep I must go. To bed must I lie.

Still for you, one thought.

Foolish one is, forgiving those who care not.

No reward without God.