"When I'm a parent, I'm not going to punish my child! I will gently..."

[yavoon]

Originally posted by DaShi


The parents don't have to be neglectful. You can still ask, "Did you **** yourself?" and try to prod the child in the right direction, but make it clear that you need the child to tell you the truth in order to help it. The main lesson is that actions or inactions have consequences.

nothing is about truth. the parents want to hear something. eventually the child will figure out what the parents want to hear. prodding the child only antagonizes the child. not that antagonizing the child is awful, but it certainly was not the goal of ur otherwise passive response.

(this doesn't apply before a certain age and mental faculty is reached)

[DaShi]

Originally posted by yavoon


nothing is about truth. the parents want to hear something. eventually the child will figure out what the parents want to hear. prodding the child only antagonizes the child. not that antagonizing the child is awful, but it certainly was not the goal of ur otherwise passive response.

(this doesn't apply before a certain age and mental faculty is reached)

Antagonizing children is always my goal. I'm a teacher, dammit!

[Snowflake]

I heard a story about somebody trying to train his cat. She always pees in the middle of the carpet of the living room. When he caught her doing that, he would scold her, swap her and then angrily throw her to the backyard throught the back window. So after multiple times of such discipline, she learnt that she would pee in the middle of the carpet and then jump out from that window as fast as she can.

I read that it is not every effective in teaching the children the right thing to do by threaten (if you do this then I will do that) or bribery (if you do this then I will give you that). Punishment sometimes serve as a negative reinforcement. Positive reinforcement is supposed to be the best way. That is, you wait till she does something good voluntarily, then you give her lots of praises, attentions and rewards.

However as a mom of two little kids I know that things are much easier said than done. I try to stick to that rule but there are many times that discipline is needed. Sometimes the kid does something bad, you try to ignore him but he'd repeat it again just to get your attention. Sometimes you look straightly at him and tell him "No!" and he would wiggle and laugh. Sometimes you try to talk to him as if he would understand and he would seriously listen and nod. Then when you let him go while feeling relieved that you have such a smart kid that you could put some reason into him, he'd be doing it again in 3 minutes.

What helped me is just being patient and consistent. A lot of times you need to say it many times before a kid realize the seriousness of it and remember the rules. I have found that many times I've been worried about a certain misbehavior not being corrected no matter what method I try. But after a while before I realize it would stop on its own. I'm never really sure if it is because my words have finally stucked in or if it is just that the kid simply grew up. Michael used to bite his big brother quite a lot. There had been many times I rescued Tiger from his merciless teeth and no matter how many "No"s he got he seemed uneffected. I've been so worried for he would be kicked out of day care if he bites other children when we send him to day care when he turns two. Well he is still not two yet but he never bites any more. I think his teeth used to be his only weapon in fighting with his old brother, and he grows up a little and can be a better fighter without relying on his teeth so much now.

As for the situation you described, I would do something different from what DaShi was suggesting. She is only two. Time out and reasonning would work better when she is a little older. What I would do is whenever I'm aware that she needs a diaper change, I would say "Oh you pooped. Let's go change your diaper." And I'll go change her without asking her and giving her the chance to say "no". She'll realize that it is not something she could bargain. That it is a fact and she'll have to do it no matter if she likes it or not. And when I do it and she protests because she doesn't like that I would take the chance to say "I know you don't like this. When you are ready to use the potty you would be able to wear underwares and not having to do this any more." But I won't force her to use the potty. Just say this from time to time so that she gets familiarized with the idea and perhaps one day she would suddenly decides that she wants to give that a try. And she might be frightened too when she startes to do that. And perhaps she would just stand up right after she sits down. I would try give her some distraction and incentives, for example I'll say how about I'll read you a book here. She might want to stay a little. But I'd let her go if she chooses not to do it.

Anyway all I'm saying is that don't push anything, be patient and consistent. Remember they are still little children. What they are doing is natural. I wouldn't classify her action as deliberately lying and punish her for that. She wouldn't really know what lying is until she is a little older yet.

[Bugs ****ing Bunny]

Anyone who thinks verbal chastisement isn't sufficient has never faced me in righteous wrath. I can make dogs cower and urinate in terror, so kids are a doddle.

It isn't raising your voice. It's putting on a scary face, adopting an aggressive bodily posture and roaring "NO!!!!!!" like an enraged silverback gorilla. Trust me, it works. I scare the crap out of them.

[DaShi]

I like HongHu's approach.

[Whaleboy]

Oh don't get me started on this again. I'll get gang raped, but you know I'm right

[Japher]

Trust me, it works. I scare the crap out of them.

And then they lie about it

[yavoon]

Originally posted by HongHu
I heard a story about somebody trying to train his cat. She always pees in the middle of the carpet of the living room. When he caught her doing that, he would scold her, swap her and then angrily throw her to the backyard throught the back window. So after multiple times of such discipline, she learnt that she would pee in the middle of the carpet and then jump out from that window as fast as she can.

I read that it is not every effective in teaching the children the right thing to do by threaten (if you do this then I will do that) or bribery (if you do this then I will give you that). Punishment sometimes serve as a negative reinforcement. Positive reinforcement is supposed to be the best way. That is, you wait till she does something good voluntarily, then you give her lots of praises, attentions and rewards.

However as a mom of two little kids I know that things are much easier said than done. I try to stick to that rule but there are many times that discipline is needed. Sometimes the kid does something bad, you try to ignore him but he'd repeat it again just to get your attention. Sometimes you look straightly at him and tell him "No!" and he would wiggle and laugh. Sometimes you try to talk to him as if he would understand and he would seriously listen and nod. Then when you let him go while feeling relieved that you have such a smart kid that you could put some reason into him, he'd be doing it again in 3 minutes.

What helped me is just being patient and consistent. A lot of times you need to say it many times before a kid realize the seriousness of it and remember the rules. I have found that many times I've been worried about a certain misbehavior not being corrected no matter what method I try. But after a while before I realize it would stop on its own. I'm never really sure if it is because my words have finally stucked in or if it is just that the kid simply grew up. Michael used to bite his big brother quite a lot. There had been many times I rescued Tiger from his merciless teeth and no matter how many "No"s he got he seemed uneffected. I've been so worried for he would be kicked out of day care if he bites other children when we send him to day care when he turns two. Well he is still not two yet but he never bites any more. I think his teeth used to be his only weapon in fighting with his old brother, and he grows up a little and can be a better fighter without relying on his teeth so much now.

As for the situation you described, I would do something different from what DaShi was suggesting. She is only two. Time out and reasonning would work better when she is a little older. What I would do is whenever I'm aware that she needs a diaper change, I would say "Oh you pooped. Let's go change your diaper." And I'll go change her without asking her and giving her the chance to say "no". She'll realize that it is not something she could bargain. That it is a fact and she'll have to do it no matter if she likes it or not. And when I do it and she protests because she doesn't like that I would take the chance to say "I know you don't like this. When you are ready to use the potty you would be able to wear underwares and not having to do this any more." But I won't force her to use the potty. Just say this from time to time so that she gets familiarized with the idea and perhaps one day she would suddenly decides that she wants to give that a try. And she might be frightened too when she startes to do that. And perhaps she would just stand up right after she sits down. I would try give her some distraction and incentives, for example I'll say how about I'll read you a book here. She might want to stay a little. But I'd let her go if she chooses not to do it.

Anyway all I'm saying is that don't push anything, be patient and consistent. Remember they are still little children. What they are doing is natural. I wouldn't classify her action as deliberately lying and punish her for that. She wouldn't really know what lying is until she is a little older yet.

in every single positive reinforcement experience I have had it has had minimal effect.

maybe this is me. but I think it its touted way more than its actual usefulness by ppl who think its immoral to punish children.

[The Mad Viking]

Originally posted by JohnT
Jimmy, you might be confusing cause and effect. Perhaps your sister was spanked because she was wild, and perhaps you weren't because you weren't.

A persuasive argument that spanking was for the parents' satisfaction, because it did not help the wild child at all!

[Japher]

kids these days are jackasses. I blame stupid, yuppie parents who won't take their hand to their children. Rather shut 'em up with drugs.

Spare the rod and spoil the child... who eventually joins a gang is disrespects you.

[The Mad Viking]

in every single positive reinforcement experience I have had it has had minimal effect.

If you read Honghu's post carefully, you will note the difference between positive reinforcement and reward.

A reward, offered in advance for compliance with a desired behaviour, is in fact IDENTICAL to a punishment. In both scenarios, you show a desirable outcome for compliance, and an undesirable outcome for non-compliance, and no other scenario. Pure manipulation, pure power, no learning other than about power, manipulation and compliance.

What Honghu is talking about is opportunistic praise when a voluntary behaviour is observed by a parent who is appreciative of that behaviour. I see little reason why you would even remember getting positive reinforcemnt, let alone be able to assess its effect!

The point is, what is the goal you are trying to achieve.

If all you want is to raise an individual who complies with power and authority, and who looks to others for guidance and approval, spank, punish and reward to your heart's content.

If, OTOH, you want to raise an individual to think for themselves, to make decisions based on assessing information and evaluating outcomes, to be self-reliant, and to develop an intrinsic sense of self-worth, maybe you ought to try communicating a little more and controlling a whole lot less.

Q "Can't you control your child?"

A "Why would I want to CONTROL my own child?"

[FlameFlash]

Originally posted by HongHu, emphasis added by me.
Anyway all I'm saying is that don't push anything, be patient and consistent. Remember they are still little children. What they are doing is natural. I wouldn't classify her action as deliberately lying and punish her for that. She wouldn't really know what lying is until she is a little older yet.

/me applauds and agrees.

[FrostyBoy]

I am against it, I 100% believe there is a better way - a more peaceful way.

It's obvious she's either lying because she doesn't want a diaper change, or maybe she is scared that she has done something that will dissappoint you.

If you didn't treat diaper changing as a bad thing, she probably would not have lied.

[yavoon]

Originally posted by The Mad Viking


If you read Honghu's post carefully, you will note the difference between positive reinforcement and reward.

A reward, offered in advance for compliance with a desired behaviour, is in fact IDENTICAL to a punishment. In both scenarios, you show a desirable outcome for compliance, and an undesirable outcome for non-compliance, and no other scenario. Pure manipulation, pure power, no learning other than about power, manipulation and compliance.

What Honghu is talking about is opportunistic praise when a voluntary behaviour is observed by a parent who is appreciative of that behaviour. I see little reason why you would even remember getting positive reinforcemnt, let alone be able to assess its effect!

The point is, what is the goal you are trying to achieve.

If all you want is to raise an individual who complies with power and authority, and who looks to others for guidance and approval, spank, punish and reward to your heart's content.

If, OTOH, you want to raise an individual to think for themselves, to make decisions based on assessing information and evaluating outcomes, to be self-reliant, and to develop an intrinsic sense of self-worth, maybe you ought to try communicating a little more and controlling a whole lot less.

Q "Can't you control your child?"

A "Why would I want to CONTROL my own child?"

very well I will rephrase. i see very lil effect of EITHER positive reinforcement OR reward.

and ur supposition of a direct cause and affect of how to raise a child and the product you will get out the back end is all but laughable. If only a parent had near that kind of ability.

[JohnT]

Originally posted by Sn00py
I am against it, I 100% believe there is a better way - a more peaceful way.

It's obvious she's either lying because she doesn't want a diaper change, or maybe she is scared that she has done something that will dissappoint you.

If you didn't treat diaper changing as a bad thing, she probably would not have lied.

That's really all I have to say about the above.