"When I'm a parent, I'm not going to punish my child! I will gently..."

[The Mad Viking]

stuie- we did spank our oldest a couple of times when he was 3-5. we justified it with the mantra of life-threatening behaviour, which we had read in the books/mags. In hindsight, I am quite sure we spanked them because of our extreme emotional state (fear, panic) and not because of considered, rational plan to teach him understanding.

All a kid can learn from spanking is don't get caught disobeying someone big and violent. If they understand the reasons behind it, you don't have to catch them, deter them, enforce it, etc.

Spanking is to make parents feel better. That is all.

[lord of the mark]

geez, do you have a lot to look forward to

Simply to give info, not advice, theres an entire range in between "hit them" and "lead by example, persuasion, inspiration, etc"

1. punish them non violently - if you do x, we take away y. etc
2. Similar to 1, but add rewards as well as punishments
3. STEP (Steps to effective parenting?) IIRC negotiate, discuss what the punishments will be.
4. Logical consqequences - punishments and rewards, as in 1 and 2 are abitrary - consequence should flow naturally from what was done - you didnt brush your teeth, so you cant eat candy. etc. Coming up with "logical" consequnces is sometime not easy, as youd imagine.


then there is the "left"camp which doesnt even like 4, cause things should be done out of intrinsic motivation.

[Buck Birdseed]

Well, I'm not a child-care expert but I play one on TV, but the natural response to the above scenario would surely be to grab the kid, make it look at you and tell them you know they're lying, then use emotional manipulation to inscribe into it why lying is bad. You know, make the sad face or something.

[JohnT]

Originally posted by Cruddy
I'm speculating JohnT, but maybe, just maybe the reason she didn't want to admit to it was because she was afraid of an angry reaction.

Now, if your conscience is clear on that, fair enough. But too often I see parents in full screeching rage at their kids.

Scares the hell out of me, let alone the kids!

Nah... Sophie is aware that Daddy has a temper, but a diaper change is just a diaper change. She's at that stage where she doesn't care for us to do it, but doesn't want to learn how to use the toilet.

[JohnT]

Originally posted by The Mad Viking
Small children are far more intelligent than adults tend to believe. We tend to base our idea of their intelligence on their vocal capabilities and their knowledge and experience, both of which they are lacking. As a result, we continually underestimate the sophisitication of their understanding, motivation and actions.

...

Spanking your kid is giving in to your fear and frustration. It has only negative impact on the kid, and admits automatically that you are a failure. If you want your kid to be thoughtful, respectful and responsible, you cannot teach them this by being angry, violent, and reactive.

We're pretty aware of how smart Sophie is... she's a very observant child, and watching her measure our reactions sometimes is a complete hoot.

However, I disagree with the notion that "Spanking your kid is giving in to your fear and frustration ... and admits automatically that you are a failure." While spanking is a last resort punishment, it doesn't automatically make a parent a failure any more than "talking it out" makes one a success.

I was spanked 5 times in my life and I remember every single one of them. And I didn't learn that Dad was a violent abuser, I learned:

1. Don't lie.
2. Don't throw the kittens.
3. Don't open everybody's Xmas presents on December 25th at 2:00am while everyone is asleep.
4. Don't steal from Dads workplace and then tell all the employees "It's mine 'cause my dad is your boss!"
5. Don't throw oranges and tomato's inside the house.

[Enigma_Nova]

Originally posted by Harry Tuttle
I'm not a parent, but I know from experience and my own upbringing that instilling the fear of God into your kids is a great motivator for them to act like respectable human beings.

Well that's good if your child believes in a higher authority.
But what happens if they do not?

[Sava]

2. Don't throw the kittens.

[JohnT]

Originally posted by Potassium
Finally, someone who agrees with what I've been telling my mom my entire life. I could carry on full conversations with adults at age 4, yet I still got treated like I just learned to speak the day before. It's annoyed the hell out of me.

And for seriously, spanking is not the way to go. Nor is hitting them at all, because after awhile, they're going to hit back. I have, on various occasions and after being slapped for something, come about thisclose to slapping my mom back. I can't bring myself to do it. But anyway.

If you want a kid to do something, reward them for positive behaviour. "If you do such and such, I'll give you a cookie/take you to the park/buy you a puppy." Worked wonders for me.

Well, when I was four I was speaking my own language, one that only my brother could understand. I'd say something like "Una gotta bitey toe!" and they'd all look at my brother and he would say "He wants some more milk."

Positive reinforcement is fine, but how do you positively reinforce the notion that crayons and walls don't mix?

[JohnT]

Originally posted by Potassium
That's why you teach them why they shouldn't be doing what they're doing. They aren't going to learn by you smacking their bottom and telling them they shouldn't do it. Anytime you tell a kid not to do something, they're just going to want to do it more.

....

No, it doesn't. Telling them to sit there and thnk about what they've done -- WTF?! "Okay. I talked back to you and now I'm sitting here being bored. I could be outside playing. That would be a lot more fun than this. I wonder what my friends are doing..." and the mind wandering continues from there.

Taking things away works about as well as ^^^ that ^^^.

Again, note that we're talking about a 27-month old child here. "Teaching them why they shouldn't be doing what they're doing" will probably work in a couple of years, but for now it usually draws blank stares and a lot of nodding.

And in the other paragraph, sitting thinking about how the other kids were having fun and you weren't is precisely what your parents wanted you to do. Oh, they didn't phrase it that way... but you gotta admit that it was pretty effective, or else you wouldn't still remember it.

[Enigma_Nova]

Originally posted by Tamerlin
Spanking kids is sometimes necessary to show them that there is a limit that MUST not be crossed... Imagine your kid is crossing the street without looking at the road to spot a vehicle though you have repeated time and time again that he should not cross without you or without having a look.

Then you have one of your neighbours hit your child with their car at 5-10kph, and if they still don't get it, hit them at 15-20kph.

The best-working way (I reckon) is to get the child aware of the current situation - sometimes through brutal experience.
...
MY flight from the imagined to the real?
Dealing with the fact that no kid is as quick at understanding things as I was. *sigh*

If a parent bothered to do the punishing it is quite possible that the child will dislike the parent as opposed to learning.
Doing something to avoid a smack may be well and good in the short-term, but when you are no longer around to give them a smack then what is there to stop them?

Exactly. Safer to teach them the errors of their ways than to set yourself up as the explaination (and likely cause of dissent).

[JohnT]

Originally posted by Buck Birdseed
Well, I'm not a child-care expert but I play one on TV, but the natural response to the above scenario would surely be to grab the kid, make it look at you and tell them you know they're lying, then use emotional manipulation to inscribe into it why lying is bad. You know, make the sad face or something.

We do this, and all Sophie does is pat our head, trying to make us feel better.

[MikeH]

Everyone knows that kittens like flying.

[Enigma_Nova]

Originally posted by JohnT
I was spanked 5 times in my life and I remember every single one of them. And I didn't learn that Dad was a violent abuser, I learned:

1. Don't lie.

Is it possible that your dad could have really stuffed with your plans by lying to you?
...How did he know you were lying, anyway?

2. Don't throw the kittens.

Presuming you don't have an angry cat somewhere around, throw the kid as he throws the kittens. (Brutal - and logical!)

3. Don't open everybody's Xmas presents on December 25th at 2:00am while everyone is asleep.

Immediate reaction: Retake presents.
Later, find out what your kid wants and usurp it before they get it (probably will require to promise this after the cristmas event).

4. Don't steal from Dads workplace and then tell all the employees "It's mine 'cause my dad is your boss!"

Have employee swipe kid's stuff, claiming "It's mine 'cause my boss is your dad!"

5. Don't throw oranges and tomato's inside the house.

Immediately met by a counterfire of tomatoes and oranges.

Of course this requires explaination, and at times would be considered brutal, but if your kid has half a wit (and -some- ability to empathise) they'll catch on.
(Note that my presumptions may well be false)

[FlameFlash]

Re: "When I'm a parent, I'm not going to punish my child! I will gently..."

Originally posted by JohnT
"... explain to them what they're doing wrong and reason with them....Spanking does nothing but teach the kid that violence is the answer... blah, blah, blah."

Yeah, I used to be one of those too. "Oh, I'll NEVER spank my kids, that would be WRONG!!! I remember when my dad spanked me - I vowed that I would never do that to my kid, that I will treat them with love, respect, yadda yadda yadda."



So, whatcha gonna do in the following case:

Sophie walks in the room, reeking to high heaven because she had a diaper:

"Sophie, did you have a movement?"
"No."
"Sophie, tell me the truth: did you have a diaper?"
"No."
"Sophie, you're lying to us."
"No."
peering inside "Sophie, I can see it. Did you have a diaper?"
"No."

Oh, we didn't spank her of course - she's still too young for more than a swat on the bottom (something you don't want to do with a full diaper anyway), but the fact is that I have seen the future 'cause I remember the past: Even with all evidence to the contrary, even knowing that we know, children will still lie to us to avoid whatever it is they want to avoid (in this situation a diaper change). I did it, my daughter does it, I'm sure y'all did it too.

So, how does one reason with a creature that will knowingly deny mountains of evidence? Answer: you can't.

Then don't give them the opportunity... My son is 19 months old... he says 'no' quite clearly. Remember, no sometimes means yes in their books because it's a word that becomes a favorite.

So it's not that you can't reason with them, it's that they don't have the active vocabulary to return the proper answer.

But any suggestions would be appreciated.

So, all you parents out there: what was the biggest shift from the imaginary to the real that you experienced? Were you rabidly anti-TV... until you needed some peace and quiet to get some work done so you decided to turn on the cartoons? Were you virulently anti-spanking until you just had to get the message across? Were you an anti-Santa Nazi who now gets sad because your kids no longer believes?

This slice-of-life has been brought to you by the family Thornton. All rights reserved.

Not big on TV much... though he loves Star Trek: TNG for some reason...

Other than that we just play him music.

He doesn't like Santa nor wants anything to do with Santa as of last Christmas. We're wagering next Christmas will be different.

[JohnT]

Sophie can say "yes"... she does so by nodding.

"Sophie do you want to eat?"
:nods:

So it's not her communication... she just thinks that if she tells us she doesn't have a diaper than that means that she doesn't have a diaper and doesn't need changing.