What do you think is the baddest ass piece of military hardware? II

[Tingkai]

Originally posted by Spiffor

Errr, it is a mistkae to think the USUK were nice when they were conquering enemy territory back in the day. A short visit in any German city that was important at the time shows that the USUK didn't hesitate at killing throngs of Civilians to reach their military objectives.

The Western Allies never institutionalised the murder of civilians, unlike the Germans.

One example of the German butchery was an order issued by the German Sixth Army during early 1942. German soldiers were told that any civilian with short hair seen behind the lines was likely a Russian soldier so these should be shot. Shot, not captured, just shot.

German soldiers were also told to shoot anyone found supply food to partisans, an order that basically meant that any civilian carrying food was shot.

For the most part, the Western Allies treated POWs fairly, unlike the Germans who shot, tortured, and starved Russian POWs. The Germans got their just desserts when they were captured.

[Tingkai]

Originally posted by Lonestar
So? Your logistics were still in shambles (relative to the western allies), and we had as many people on the ground as the Red Army did.

Whether the Allied troops would have fought the Russians is highly questionable. When the war in Europe ended, many troops argued that they should be send home, having done their duty, rather than being sent to the Pacific.

If they were unwilling to fight the Japanese, it is highly likely that most troops would have been unwilling to launch an unprovoked attack on Russia.

[Saras]

Originally posted by Patroklos
Western Europeans
Eastern/Central European/Balkan volunteers

As the German fortunes steadily declined, the Waffen-SS took to recruiting or conscripting increasing numbers of foreign recruits that were by no stretch of the imagination bore any relation to the Nazi "ideal." These troops, although numerous, were perhaps the least motivated of all.

Country/Ethnicity Estimated # of volunteers Waffen-SS Units
Albanian 3,000 21st SS Division
Belgian: Flemish 23,000 5th SS Div., 27th SS Div.

Belgium: Walloon 15,000 5th SS Div., 28th SS Div.
British Commonwealth (English) 50 British Freikorps

Bulgaria 200-1,000? Bulgarisches Reg.

Croatia (includes Bosnian Muslims) 30,000 7th SS Div., 13th SS Div.
23rd SS Div.
Denmark 10,000 Freikorps Danemark, 11th SS Div.

Indian 3,500 Volunteer Leg.

Estonia 20,000 20th SS Div.

Finland 1,000 Volunteer Bat.

Hungarians 15,000? 25th SS Div., 26th SS Div.
33rd SS Div.
Latvia 39,000 15th SS Div., 19th SS Div.

Netherlands 50,000 23rd SS Div., 34th SS Div.

Norway 6,000 5th SS Div., 6th SS Div.
11th SS Div., Volunteer Leg.

France 8,000 33rd SS Div.

Italy 20,000 29th SS (Italian)

Poland/Ukraine 25,000 14th SS Div.

Russian (Belorussia) 12,000 29th SS Div., 30th SS Div.

Russian (Cossak) 40,000 XV SS Kosaken-Kavallerie-Korps

Russian (Turkic) 8,000 Ostürkische SS , Tatarishe SS

Rumania 3,000? Waffen-Grenadierregiment der SS (rumänisches 1)

Serbia 15,000 Volunteer Corps

Spain 200 - 1,000? Spanische-Freiwilligen-Kompanie der SS 101

Sweden, Switzerland & Luxemburg 3,000?* 5th SS Div., 11th SS Div.
Note: W-SS veteran and historian Wilhelm Tieke claims only 175 Swedes served in the W-SS 1940-45 and that the "Swedish company" in the 11th SS actually had many "Estonian Swedes".

No granted this is only the SS, but the Army was several times the size of the SS and thus probobly had in its rankes a much larger number than the Waffen SS. I included the Western numbers because in the overall arguement of a Soviet/Allied war. Several hundred thousand western volunteers joined primarily to fight against the Bolsheviks, with an occupying power comitting attrocitites. US/UK could expect at least the same support or more. Tehre were commnits in the West, but like most things Serb says, their power is exagerated.

On a side note, please see there is no mention of Lithuanian volunteers who had enough brains and national pride to take their rifles and go the woods and fight first Germans, then Russians.

To be fair, there were many young Lithuanians in the extermination squads that gave Lithuania the worst holocaust victim/1000 capita statistic.

[Drake Tungsten]

Wolverines!!!

Wolverines!!!

[monkspider]

Originally posted by Drake Tungsten

Wolverines!!!

Wolverines!!!

I think the next thread we should have is "what is the baddest ass piece of Drake Tungsten".

A. Hair
B. Leg-Pit
C. Pinky Toe
D. Right Knee
E. The Banana

[Bosh]

Spain 200 - 1,000? Spanische-Freiwilligen-Kompanie der SS 101

There were a lot more men in the the spanish División Azul, which fought at Lake Ilmen and on the Leningrad Front from Oct 1941 to 43, there was also a Spanische-Freiwilligen-Kompanie der SS 102.

[Generalissimo]

This

[Patroklos]

He only lists figures that have concrete evidence. Even then when this is ambiguous or questinable he adds "?" to point this our. There has always been problems verifying numbers. It is further complicated becasue the "ethnic" SS divisions rarely even started out majority ethnic, and most definitly didn't stay that way for long. Though the 11th SS Nordland seems to be an excepton, usually maintaining 50/50 named ethnic and German mix.

[Drake Tungsten]

I think the next thread we should have is "what is the baddest ass piece of Drake Tungsten".

A. Hair
B. Leg-Pit
C. Pinky Toe
D. Right Knee
E. The Banana

My right knee is still a bit gimpy. I banged it pretty hard when I fell in a concrete drainage ditch after a post-soccer tournament piss up and it still isn't back to normal.

My left knee, on the other hand, would kick the living **** out of any other knee on the planet.

[Tingkai]

Originally posted by Patroklos
He only lists figures that have concrete evidence. Even then when this is ambiguous or questinable he adds "?" to point this our. There has always been problems verifying numbers. It is further complicated becasue the "ethnic" SS divisions rarely even started out majority ethnic, and most definitly didn't stay that way for long. Though the 11th SS Nordland seems to be an excepton, usually maintaining 50/50 named ethnic and German mix.

He also claims the Waffen SS were civilrous (sp?, I'm drunk and can't be bothered to spell it right). What's honourable about killing unarmed civilians. Hell, the Waffen SS even killed unarmed Germans.

[Patroklos]

ALL of what he said:

Ultimately, the Nüemberg War Crimes trial was entirely correct in labeling the SS a "criminal organization."

The Waffen-SS is a disquieting paradox for the Western mind. It was an elite military formation in the Western model - corageous and sometimes chivalrous. It was simultaneously bloodthirsty, cruel and a willing participant in Hitler's Weltanschaung*

To deny the role of the Waffen-SS in war crimes is a fundamental misunderstanding of the purpose of the Waffen-SS as even Waffen-SS soldiers understood it. The purpose of the Waffen-SS was to impose and protect Hitler's world view on the greater European continient - nothing less.

Your ignorant chop:

He also claims the Waffen SS were civilrous

The Waffen SS, and try hard to grasp this as it doesn't fit in to your cookie cutter color coded coloring book world, did not just commint atrocities. They fought bravely and chivalrously for a cuase they truely believed. Unfortunetly they dowsed these comendable traits in the blood of innocents with the same tenacity. That not only makes any admirable traits irrelevant, but also makes the whole organization criminal. Which is exactly what the author said, and the site as a whole maintains. Each unit history has an autrocities section.

I do not think I have every seen someone so blatantly cut a quote to make it say what they want on this thread to the extent you just did.

Drunk or not, it is inexcusable to do so. It is things like that that make it so difficult to desiminate an accurate account of any controversial topic.

[Joseph]

Back to the top.

[Colonâ„¢]

Look at those guns!

[Ted Striker]

Originally posted by Drake Tungsten

Wolverines!!!

Wolverines!!!

Wolverines!!!

[TCO]

Originally posted by monkspider


I think the next thread we should have is "what is the baddest ass piece of Drake Tungsten".

A. Hair
B. Leg-Pit
C. Pinky Toe
D. Right Knee
E. The Banana

I thought commies were supposed to be humorless...I see a future conversion to P.J. Rourke in your future.