What do you think is the baddest ass piece of military hardware? II

[Zylka]

SOOoOOOooOO SUCCESSFUL

[Sikander]

Serb, there's an account of meeting the Russians in the book Normandy by Max Hastings for one. I've read a lot of books about the war, and there are a number of sources I could list if I was at home with my library and not at work with my deadline..

[Cruddy]

Originally posted by Sikander
...Max Hastings...

Hawwwkkkkkkk-PTTTUI!


The most unreliable, twisted, arse licking, back stabbing "creative" journalist from this country in recent years.

Did you know he was nearly knifed by his fellow journalists at the end of the Falklands War for deliberately sending only his story off telling the country about the ceasefire?

There was only one seat on the chopper to the ship with the radio gear - and he handed out all the other copy to the off duty officers in the wardroom.

After that sort of behaviour, I wouldn't beleive a road safety guide written by Max "Hitler" Hastings. Yes, that is his nickname.

[Colonâ„¢]

Originally posted by Saras


Kaboom! Iowa broadside.

that picture moves me

[Colonâ„¢]

Originally posted by Cruddy


Yep, KGV class (King George 5th) would be about our best, although to be honest we'd concentrated more on aircraft carriers from about 1938 onwards.

Anyone who wants a good look at relative battleship performance might like to try;-

Build a better Battleship

that's a very nice article for a layman like me

[CerberusIV]

Originally posted by Cruddy

Yep, KGV class (King George 5th) would be about our best, although to be honest we'd concentrated more on aircraft carriers from about 1938 onwards.

Vanguard , an improved KGV was the best the UK ever built but not launched until 1946.

It's a shame the US never completed the Montana class.

[Tingkai]

Originally posted by Sikander
You keep using grandiose language which implies that what you are saying was universally true. I'm simply saying that there were good and bad people and actions on all sides,

You may call it "grandoise language", but perhaps this is the only language that can describe the extent of the atrocities committed by the Germans in Russia.

Do you think the Germans during WWII were just like everybody else? Did everyone else try to kill all the jews gypsys, etc? You do know that three millions Russians POWs out of 5.7 million captured died in German captivity. Did the Western allies kill half of the Germans they captured?

Your comparison of the Germans in WWII and My Lai is one of apples to oranges.

My Lai was an isolated event. The US government put Calley on trial (after the incident was exposed) and he was convicted IIRC.

The German atrocities in Russia were wide spread, widely known among the troops and endorsed and encouraged by the government.

Do you see the difference?

The question is then: Why did the Germans do what they did? Why did "civilized" people become barbarians. One of the main reasons is the Nazi philosophy that East Europeans were "sub-human", a belief that was drilled into the German people through propaganda. To the vast majority of German soldiers, killing Russian civilians and POWs was perfectly acceptable.

The following are quotes from Anthony Beevor's Stalingrad describing conditions during the first summer of the German invasion of Russia.

"Nazi propaganda simultaneously provoking atavistic fears and hate, incited soldiers to kill as much out of former as the latter."

"The wounded [Russian POWs] generally received no medical assistance and those who could not march or who collapsed from exhaustion were shot... The German Army itself, not the SS nor any other Nazi organization was responsible for prisoners of war."

"German soldiers were "taking pot-shots at the columns of Soviet prisoners trudging to the rear."

An order from the German Sixth Army HQ on 10 Aug 41 noted: "There have been cases of off-duty soldiers volunteering to help the SD with their executions, or acting as spectators and taking photos."

"Although there were cases of soldiers reluctant to carry out executions when ordered, most natural pity for civilians transmuted into an incoherent anger."

Your attempt to paint the German army and SS units in Russia as just another fighting force simply goes against the facts.

Yes, some German Army officiers tried to distance themselves from the atrocities. Some even refused to issue orders for killing POWS. But these officers were in the minority and virtually all of the Germans who fought during WWII helped to keep the Nazi-organized killing machine alive by fighting to defend it.

Originally posted by Sikander
The whole point of the death camps was to remove the passion from the crime, so that fewer of their own people would break under the strain.

The whole point of the death camps was to kill Jews and others efficiently and quickly. It was not about sparing the sensibilities of the German soldier.

[Tingkai]

On another note, we are threadjacking this thread so I have started another thread for anyone who cares to continue this discussion.

http://apolyton.net/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=106426

[Lonestar]

M1A2's storming Moscow, a la Red Alert

[TCO]

Saras...they were bad guys and there was nothing like having them in the crosshairs with a loaded gun pointed at their temple.

[Serb]

You are still the bad guys.

[TCO]

Then the bad guys won...you frigging slave of a bootlicker.

[Jaguar]

I'm gonna have to go with the AH64D Apache Longbow.

[Serb]

Originally posted by TCO
Then the bad guys won...

Enjoy your victory then. After 50 years or so, Iraqis, whose contry you just "liberated", would start to tell stories about American atrocities, muss murders, genocid, raped Iraqis wemen, children and elders.

you frigging slave of a bootlicker.

FY too...
...and have a nice day.

[Zylka]

Originally posted by Serb

Enjoy your victory then. After 50 years or so, Iraqis, whose contry you just "liberated", would start to tell stories about American atrocities, muss murders, genocid, raped Iraqis wemen, children and elders.

Shut the **** up, you useless hack