True Faith

[Pekka]

What is it?

I have faith, but sometimes I can't help myself but doubt. I always end up not doubting, but I think there is a small part of me that doubts. 0.5 % part of me doubts. To have true faith, that would be 100% right? No doubt at all. And I keep possibility open, that some other religion is right, and I'm wrong. If I had 100% true faith, I wouldn't do that, right? I guess what I'm saying is, I believe that others might be right and I wouldn't go 'NO WAY!' but 'Ok..good for you'.

I also sometimes base it on wrong methods and values.
Like being afraid that when I die, I'll be lost forever or go to hell, if there is a heaven, I'd like to go there. But that's pretty selfish in a way, right? Wanting to go there, and keeping that as one big reason to believing in something. If I had 100% true faith, I wouldn't have to.

I've also used my prayers wrong sometimes, as a kid I praid for computer like a year in a row. I think that's misusing them. Also many times, I've known that this is against God, but still did it just thinking 'he won't mind' or 'he'll forgive me'. That's screwed up! How can God forgive me if I deliberately used the loop hole?

Sometimes I regret those things, and about some of those things, my regret is not sincere. I'd like it to be, but it's not.

What should I do and how can I be better person when it comes to these things? What is true faith? It doesn't necessarily mean fundy stuff, so spare me.

[Ben Kenobi]

Pekka:

I have faith, but sometimes I can't help myself but doubt.

Human nature. This is why you see sections in the OT that tell you to wrap the Ten Commandments on your forehead. Even when interpreted symbolically, you get the gist that people, though they be believers, need to be reminded of what they believe.

It would be great to never doubt, but that isn't going to happen until after the Resurrection.

Like being afraid that when I die, I'll be lost forever or go to hell, if there is a heaven, I'd like to go there.

Christians don't need eulogies. If you have professed faith in Christ, you should not fear death, because you can expect to go to heaven. Again, sometimes you will wonder whether this is true or not, but don't call yourself selfish for wanting to be saved!

I've also used my prayers wrong sometimes, as a kid I praid for computer like a year in a row.

I remember a very good friend of mine whom I knew when I first became a Christian. One of the first messages I put up on my board in my uni dorm was the Ask, Seek, Knock passage. She told me to be aware that God does not answer all your prayers.

It is not wrong to ask, but you have to understand that God wants will not be the same as yours, and this you see in the prayers he does not answer.

I keep asking for a wife, and He keeps telling me to wait.

What should I do and how can I be better person when it comes to these things?

Best summary I ever heard came from a Catholic. When asked if he was a practicing Catholic, he said that he'll keep on practicing until he gets it right.

Hope this helps.

[SlowwHand]

Good answers, Ben.

And hang in there, Pekka.

[Pekka]

Sloww, need not to worry. I'm not in crisis about this. Just thought about this once again.

Ben, good answers sure...

But then there is the delibarete use of 'loop holes', that I can do this and this, knowing that I'll be saved because I'm forgiven. And then there are lots of things in the Bible for example, that God destroys you and kills you until you die and then repeats it x 1000 times eternity and lets the devil sort you out. But who are these folks? These sometimes comes as a price for smaller sins too.
Is it, that these people who committed these acts never wanted to be saved, and that's why they weren't??

And what about the people who lived before there was Bible, and lived in remote place and never heard of these things? Maybe believed in something, like tribes, but didn't get it 'right' according to our manual. What about them, they can be good people too?

And is it worse that you know you're doing something wrong according to the book, but you argue with it and think it's not wrong, but there really is not much to interpret? And you still go by your own mind. Then you justify it with something, you're being rational all the way and it works?

And what about serious conflicts? I mean, like wars?
I feel that I sometimes forget about the teachings and what not, so I can play it my way? Like for example war in Iraq.. I feel like I should be against it if I was interpreting with my own thoughts and mind the book, but my heart and my own rational thinking leads me other way? And then I go against that, just because I feel like it's the right thing to do? And it's not just that.
I mean, I've tried to kill my passion for these kinds of things. But the truth is, I can't help myself, if I had a chance to go myself, I'd do it without thinking twice abou it. Like right now, I'd stop posting this post and go.
That would mean possibly killing other people for other country that is not mine, and I can not think it as defending me, or my countrymen directly. Indirectly maybe, but it's serious things, so it should be direct. But I can't help it, I really really can't. So, in a way, I'd be going to hell for it, right?

[Ben Kenobi]

Pekka:

Lots of questions.

You are proving to be an efficient and effective distractor from my paper.

But then there is the delibarete use of 'loop holes', that I can do this and this, knowing that I'll be saved because I'm forgiven.

Then we get into Paul's exhortations to stop sinning! As a Christian you are to be dead to sin, so that the same sin will not provide the same pleasure. It doesn't mean that we stop doing so entirely, but that when we slip we need to stop, ask for forgiveness and then change our behavior.

It does not happen overnight, but you have to take it one day at a time. "Each day has enough troubles of its own."

Is it, that these people who committed these acts never wanted to be saved, and that's why they weren't??

CS Lewis goes into this in Mere Christianity. Some things which to us seem minor things, even over a 70 year lifespan, may become huge obstacles if we exist eternally. The trick is not the current value, but the vector, the direction of the change.

If you are not a Christian, you are essentially at war with God. He still loves you, but he cannot tolerate your actions, hence everything God does will turn against you. Now, when you become a Christian, you are laying down your arms, accepting his authority. Why would you want to take up arms again?

And what about the people who lived before there was Bible, and lived in remote place and never heard of these things? Maybe believed in something, like tribes, but didn't get it 'right' according to our manual. What about them, they can be good people too?

This is a very old question, but the answer lies in our manual. What are the two greatest commandments? To love God and to love your neighbour as yourself. Look at Abraham, having neither the Law nor Christ, yet "it was credited to him as righteousness."

It is possible for those without access to the Gospel to be saved, but the only way we can know for sure is if they have publicly repented.

And is it worse that you know you're doing something wrong according to the book, but you argue with it and think it's not wrong, but there really is not much to interpret? And you still go by your own mind. Then you justify it with something, you're being rational all the way and it works?

We all do that. That's why Jesus tells us to take the plank out of our own eye before judging someone. We need to understand that our own sin will not be judged any less harshly than that of someone else. It's not rational, but a part of our sinful nature.

I mean, I've tried to kill my passion for these kinds of things. But the truth is, I can't help myself, if I had a chance to go myself, I'd do it without thinking twice about it. Like right now, I'd stop posting this post and go.

I'm a poor man to speak to for military matters, as I consider myself a pacifist, and I do not see how such conflict can resolve anything.

First question we need to ask ourselves, 'Is this sin?' I can't really answer this without getting into the nitty gritty of what you want to do.

If you'd rather, I feel you might be more comfortable with a PM. It seems the discussion is heading this way.

[Vesayen]

Logic is my rock, widom my shield and reason my God.

If God(in the literal sense) exists, he'll be am embodiment of these characteristics amoung others-so I worshiped at the right altar.

(Wisdom entails morality)

[Pekka]

Ben Kenobi, If you want to PM that's ok, but I can keep it public as well. I have nothing to hide from others. I'll crush them if they use it against me .

On the military aspect, we had priests there, and they said it's ok to kill for your coutry if someone attacks you, because you are defending yourself and your family.
But this was strictly defend policy, which meant that you are not to go to others countries to fight the war there.

In a way, as a Christian, I could say that I have enemies everywhere who is unjust and opresses and kills my fellow Christians. And maybe non-Christians too.
So, in a way, I should be able to go to other countries, and if I see a there my 'brothers' are being treated badly and there is no good explanation to that, except that the one treating them badly is selfish. So, shouldn't I be able to defend them as well, and fight every man who is against me in that scenario. Anywhere, anytime and by most means? But then again, am I, as an individual, allowed to extend this concept of friends and 'brothers'?

If I'm able to live in peace, shouldn't I be just doing that?
I don't know.. I really don't. And by this I don't mean striking down everyone who is not Christian. It doesn't matter if the one treating everyone else is Christian or not, but he becomes my enemy. The question is, how far I can take my actions, so that they are not against Gods wish and sin?

[Ben Kenobi]

Pekka:

Okeydokey.

We can keep this public.

In a way, as a Christian, I could say that I have enemies everywhere who is unjust and opresses and kills my fellow Christians.

You misunderstand. While I would appreciate your attempts to prevent persecution, look at all the martyrs in the Christian church.

Christ even says so, in the beatitudes, Matthew 5:10-12

"Blessed are those who are persecuted because of righteousness, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

Blessed are you when people insult you, persecute you and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of me.

Rejoice and be glad, because great is your reward in heaven, for in the same way they persecuted the prophets who were before you. "

You are acting like Peter, when he denied that Christ must die on the cross, in trying to protect Christians, you assume that this is what God wants.

Matthew 26:51-4

Then the men stepped forward, seized Jesus and arrested him. With that, one of Jesus' companions reached for his sword, drew it out and struck the servant of the high priest, cutting off his ear.

"Put your sword back in its place," Jesus said to him, "for all who draw the sword will die by the sword. Do you think I cannot call on my Father, and he will at once put at my disposal more than twelve legions of angels? But how then would the Scriptures be fulfilled that say it must happen in this way?"

It doesn't matter if the one treating everyone else is Christian or not, but he becomes my enemy.

I think you have it backwards. Who is your neighbour?

[Pekka]

My neighbour? The one I should treat like I'd like myself to be treated? BUt I can't expect a nice treatment if I go and opress lots of people and cause the misery?


I don't know.. I should just keep religion and conflits aparts from each other. They mix badly.

and about that sword thing, Jesus knew what was to be done and what was going to happen. And others could trust he was right because he was right there and telling them so.

But now for example, I don't know if I should put my sword down or up, because Jesus is not telling me which way it should be? AND I wouldn't go fight for God and in his name. I think that's just horrible. I'm just trying to find out if it's a sin or not, do I get a free pass, or jail?

[Ben Kenobi]

Pekka:

BUt I can't expect a nice treatment if I go and opress lots of people and cause the misery?

Yes, and this is why we are not to treat them the way they treat others.

And others could trust he was right because he was right there and telling them so.

But even then, Peter denied that Christ had to die on the cross. Even if he tells us, we still need to trust God that things will work out.

Look, if people see someone torturing a Christian, and him not fighting back, what opinion do they have of the tormentor? Of the Christian?

I'm just trying to find out if it's a sin or not, do I get a free pass, or jail?

I'm just a simple Christian, not a pastor. Tell him exactly what you have told me. He's the one who will be able to tell you properly.

As for me, asking will not get you into trouble, only doing will. Remember the advice of Paul, in that if you feel you are acting against your conscience, trust those instincts. It is not necessary to take vengeance for the persecutions inflicted on Christians. God will manage that himself.

[Pekka]

I guess I could find another way to fight it, I don't know. For example getting a camera and going there to witness what happens and try to reach everyone and let them know. This is not about Iraq, this is in general. I guess that's acceptable and a good thing. But how do I decide which is good, because then I'm so close and see all the horrible things, that it can screw up my judgement and effect how I report it? Acts of individuals might make me lost in bigger picture of what is right and wrong.
Well I guess we can all agree that's not a sin.
But this is not my passion... I'd hate to get killed trying to enter combat area, lose my films and get shot.. for nothing.

For example, I'm not able to do bombing, I just can't. But I think I could fire my rifle to kill enemy, and go to close hand to hand combat if that's what needs to be done. I figure this way there are no collateral damages, and I gave the respect the other side deserved to go face to face. I don't know if this is screwed up.

It's like my dog, I hated it that the vet didn't let me put the 'medicine' into my dog when it had to be put to sleep.. it was clear she knew what was going on, and she was peaceful about it at first and kind of greatful and tired at the same time.. this is what I think. But then this vetenary comes and says it's time and puts the needle in and starts injecting. I demanded I'd do it, because I wanted to be the one putting my dog to sleep, not some strange doctor. I think she deserved to be put out by her owner, me. Does this make any sense? It's like this. No one kills my pets. It is me who does it, if it is necessary. Anything less is a disgrace. And it's not about me, it's about the pet. difficult to explain.

[Ben Kenobi]

But I think I could fire my rifle to kill enemy, and go to close hand to hand combat if that's what needs to be done. I figure this way there are no collateral damages, and I gave the respect the other side deserved to go face to face. I don't know if this is screwed up.

Take my words with a grain of salt, because I'm a pacifist, and pacifists don't agree with resistance even when attacked.

I understand what you mean by no collateral damage, you are uncomfortable with killing innocents. However, how would one square this with loving your enemy? Doing good to those who curse you? Just because they hate you does not give you license to hate them.

[nato]

What is it?

Faith is a general escape clause for religion. Any major, even obvious problem or hole in logic can simply be waived away by saying "you've got to have faith."

Faith boils down to closing your eyes, covering your ears, and saying "na na na na na na na I can't hear you!" in the face of anything that casts doubt on what you already wanted to believe anyway.

Faith is a tool to keep doubters in a religion or cult. If someone starts pointing out the problems, the grand high priest can simply accuse him of not having enough faith.

Faith is selective. It is used to escape problems for the religion you want, but never used for all other religions. If the same logic used to dismiss all other religions were applied to your chosen one, it too would be dismissed. But that special one gets a special no-logic-applied shield called faith.

If you don't use faith to look at other possible religions, try looking at yours without it. Why should it get special treatment?

[Pekka]

I guess so. But that's that extending the concept of friends thing, so I can justify it, that I'm now defending myself and my friends. Because I can't justify going somewhere far to just defend myself. I could stay home as well. But if I could say, that these are my friends and brothers, then I can say I'm really defending someone, and it was necessary for me to come.

About the collateral damage, absolutely no. It is something I can not do myself, or order anyone to do. There is some level of acceptance to it, I don't necessarily condemn people who do, if they cause is good and it is 'necessary', but I can't do it, or order someone else to do it. This is what I mean with face to face. And by that, I give the other one to defend himself, or kill me. It's more fair in individual level. Naturally war is not supposed to be fair, but I don't want to be responsible for anonymous and faceless victims. I'd rather know it all, see it all, and do it all myself. It would make me lose my sleep for a long time or forever I guess, but .. I'd go crazy with the faceless thing. I don't know.. this is getting pretty messy post. And it's not so much about does God want me to do that, because I don't think that's Gods will.. I don't think I'm his holy fighter, and in fact I don't believe in holy wars and the likes. I think they're bunch of BS. But would I get crushed because of it? That's what I'm wondering..

Anyway, it's about other things too.. how do I know if God wants me, or doesn't want me to do this and do that? I guess I can ask and wait for an answer, but what is real and what is not? I see what I want to see anyway.. So how do I know I'm walking the right path?

[Ben Kenobi]

nato:

Any major, even obvious problem or hole in logic can simply be waived away by saying "you've got to have faith."

Wise man does not post trolls in a sincere Pekka thread.

Why don't you go back to playing in your sandbox.