True Faith

[Lincoln]

Originally posted by Pekka


I don't know.. I should just keep religion and conflits aparts from each other. They mix badly.

They do seem to mix badly. I have struggled with this for about 25 years. First I was a typical "fight for your country" Christian. Then I became a pacifist after reading more carefully the words of Jesus. Then as part of a ministry with teenagers I was led to get a job at a prison (because many of the kids I was working with were put into prison). I tried to get into the prison as a volunteer but I could not. Finally it became clear to me that God wanted me to get a job as a guard.

That job turned out to be very fruitful because the inmates learned to respect authority while at the same time they knew that I was sent to help them (because I knew some of them from the street). Then came the dilemma:

What would I do if my job as a cop came into conflict with my beliefs as a Christian? Would I, for example, shoot an inmate that was trying to escape? I didn't normally work in the towers but once I had to fill in and I looked at the rifle and an inmate who I knew personally in the yard. I could not shoot him because I knew his history. But then I saw another inmate that I also knew very well and he was guilty of killing several people on a past escape.

I came to the conclusion that I would shoot him if he climbed over the fence. I was in the position of one ordained by God to "carry the sword". And I believe that he expected me to protect the community. In the same way the civil government is ordained to protect a nation. As a Christian I cannot kill anyone but I am no longer part of the civil government. As you said, it is better to keep religion from war. As a Christian I cannot see myself killing a teenager in Iraq even if he was shooting at me. I now leave wars to other people. They have to decide their own motives.

In my case, my motive for being on this earth is to be an example of the compassion of Jesus. I cannot justify killing another person for "love of country" but I do not comdemn those who see it the same way that I did when I worked in a prison. God help them to do what is right and not use their power to do what so many in authority have done in the past.

[Pekka]

It's just that I'd want to be able to know what is expected of me, so I could do it. And know which way is wrong so I wouldn't do it. I'm not talking about mistakes, I'm talking about things that gets me off the invited list .

[nato]

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi
nato:



Wise man does not post trolls in a sincere Pekka thread.

Why don't you go back to playing in your sandbox.

Ah, you're defining troll as something you don't agree with. It must be very comforting to say that something you don't agree with is so crazy it could only be a troll.

Thats a dishonest technique similar to faith. Don't you see you're just covering your ears from my post right now, and dressing it up with a smilie?

Anyway, I don't mean any offense to Pekka. Its just that logically faith has no basis, and I honestly believe you'd be much better off in life without it. Read what I said, can you really say theres zero truth to it?

He asked a question, and I gave my answer. I realize there are widely differing views from mine. Unlike you, I don't call them trolls and I don't leave snide little smilies to them. I actually consider them rationally.

[Pekka]

And about that other thing. If I see a man beating little child in front of me, I will get involved. I don't think 'well it's none of my business'. It probably is none of my business, but I couldn't live with myself knowing that it happened and I did nothing to stop it. Calling the cops even. That wouldn't stop the beating right there, right then.

And I watch the idiot box everyday. So everything that happens far away from me, is still happening and I still see it. I'm still young and able, why shouldn't I do everything I can to stop it, or defend someone? I'd like that neighbour to come and defend me, even if it means thousands of miles away. And for example in case of Iraq, these people are mostly muslims. But still most of them are innocent of stuff, so why is it NOT my responsibility to do what I can, to help them?

I don't care about oil, it's not coming to my country. I don't care about WMD so much as many, because it's not directed to my country, and I feel like it's not really directed at US either. I feel like it's only to make Saddam feel like important man, to sooth his ego. But he did and still would if he was in charge, kill innocent people of his own in great numbers. Making everyone shut up or die who tries to prevent him doing so. How is it not my responsibility to fight this man, where ever it takes place? The people there couldn't stand up for themselves, and were too submitted to even remember what that means. Why is it, that I couldn't do it? I don't believe they like dying, so it's not like they have to ask for the help IMO.

[Ben Kenobi]

Pekka:

But if I could say, that these are my friends and brothers, then I can say I'm really defending someone, and it was necessary for me to come.

But even your brothers may not want you to help them escape persecution.

if they cause is good and it is 'necessary', but I can't do it, or order someone else to do it.

What types of causes would be just? It seems to me that if I could not do something, why would I not ask the same of others?

Naturally war is not supposed to be fair, but I don't want to be responsible for anonymous and faceless victims.

Why would you respect someone in war by killing him close up? Wouldn't it be better to not kill him at all?

But would I get crushed because of it? That's what I'm wondering..

Well, I don't believe anyone who is a Christian can lose salvation, though I don't think Lutherans believe the same. Best to just avoid doing so if you are not sure.

how do I know if God wants me, or doesn't want me to do this and do that? I guess I can ask and wait for an answer, but what is real and what is not? I see what I want to see anyway.. So how do I know I'm walking the right path?

All excellent questions, that your pastor will be able to answer much better than I can. Pray about it. Ask God, what do you want me to do here?

[Ben Kenobi]

And about that other thing. If I see a man beating little child in front of me, I will get involved. I don't think 'well it's none of my business'. It probably is none of my business, but I couldn't live with myself knowing that it happened and I did nothing to stop it. Calling the cops even. That wouldn't stop the beating right there, right then.

Good point Pekka.

There are ways to help people without killing anyone. These are the best solutions if available. The same applies to Iraq. There is plenty of work that needs to be done.

nato:

Ah, you're defining troll as something you don't agree with.

Considering that none of the responses to Pekka has been, "You just lack faith," makes me call troll. Perhaps if you stuck to the topic, your posts would be better recieved.

[Pekka]

My pastor is weird. I think I shouldn't take his words for advice that I follow. He's weird.

Why my brothers wouldn't want me to help them? How do I know it? If I just show up, and no one tells me to leave, I guess they want me, right? I can't be expected to wait for personal invitation.... And at least then I could think that at least I went there and offered my help. Now I know I'm not needed here.

I think cause that is justified, is when the outcome is better by doing it than not doing it. For example, if it means less people dead in the aftermath, it's ok.

I wouldn't order it, because I can't do it myself. I can't order something that I can't do myself. Because when the time comes, and in theory I have to order something to be done that I can't do myself, there is a possibility I'd chicken out, and not fill my responsibility, what that position requires me to do. This is why I will never even try to get this place, where I'd have to order something to be bombed. I let others do it. I think it's the same if I order it or do it myself. I feel like it's the same if I aim, or pull the trigger. To me, there is no difference in personal level.

And about face to face, doesn't mean I'd give someone to get ready to defend themselves to make it fair and square battle though. In my own little weird world it's respect.. hard to explain. If I had a choice, to use a sniper rifle, or to ambush enemy right in front of his face and eliminate the enemy hand to hand, I'd prolly choose hand to hand if the outcome would be same, meaning I'd stay alive which ever I choose to do. I guess what this really is, is that I'd be in position, where I really have to do it in order to stay alive myself. This doesn't mean I'd go look for situation where i'm forced to do it, and if I'm far away looking from that rifle that I wouldn't shoot.

But I draw the limit with bombing. For example, if I was with my group and I saw enemy, I'll be calling and ordering granade attack, or airstrike, what ever. But this is to make my groups chances better, and because I saw the enemy and knew how necessary it really was, with my own eyes. Outcome is the same, but I guess I'd feel better about it myself. I could say 'this is exactly what I needed to do'.

[Pekka]

Yes there are other things that could be done. LIke that photographing as one example. No need to kill anyone, but that would still be something that is needed to be done. No matter if there are many doing it already, there is always room for another one to come and let people all around the world to see what is happening.

[Pekka]

Lincoln, thanks, that was very interesting post. I see what you mean.

I'm personally just trying to find the limits that I can operate.

Ben, And it doesn't necessarily mean I'd kill anyone. Most likely I wouldn't actually kill a person. But the fact remains, that I would have entered a place that 'is none of my business' to fight the enemy I defined myself to be my enemy, when I could just as easily stayed home and watch it from tv. I think it would make me as guilty if I go, as if I'd actually have to kill someone there then. I'd be knowingly putting myself to that situation.

It's like the saying 'the road to hell is paved with good intentions'.

[Ben Kenobi]

My pastor is weird. I think I shouldn't take his words for advice that I follow. He's weird.

If you don't mind my asking, how so? Some of this work is pastoral care, for which I am not qualified. You deserve a real professional.

is when the outcome is better by doing it than not doing it.

None of us can see all the consequences of our actions.

[Pekka]

Ben Kenobi, that is true, we can't know it. Sometimes though, the odds are on the actions side.

Well first of all, I don't really know him, but he's kind of 'old school' type of guy. I haven't been to church very often, but I remember him as being kind of all about pain and suffering. My mom told me he was a real weirdo, and she's pastor too.

and about the wars and conflicts thing, I don't have to talk about it with pastor because at the moment I'm not going anywhere, if the time comes, I'll be sure to do it though. I'm 99.8% sure my total of ending human lives is 0 after I'm gone myself.

[Ben Kenobi]

Well first of all, I don't really know him,

I haven't been to church very often

Both of these have to do with your mom? I know she's had problems. One thing you can do is to find someone who is a pastor who you can talk to.

I consider it analogous to a doctor. If you need doctors for physical health, why would Christians go without a pastor for spiritual health?

If you're talking about it here, trying to figure out what God wants of you, you need to talk to a pastor.

[Pekka]

Pastors make mistakes. I don't want to talk to pastors.

[Ben Kenobi]

And I'm perfect?

Thank you Pekka.

[Pekka]

You speak for yourself and your opinion and what you have come to from studies. I am allowed to criticize it. I am allowed to think differently. With pastor, they speak for the church, though they really speak for themselves true, and I know pastors makes lots of mistakes. Like all humans. So, I see no point of seeing a pastor about it.