Every individual should be a libretarian at heart

[Solly]

It provides an unnatural and possibly harmful escapism

Unnatural? There are a lot of things we do that are "unnatural". Using computers and travelling by plane, for example. Bad, bad!

Escapism? A lot of people escape from reality by reading books, playing video games or immersing themselves in films. Bad, bad!

Possibly harmful? It's their own body to harm as they wish. Should we punish people who don't take daily exercise and eat 5 fruit & veg a day?

[Commie Chocobo]

OK, so you are'nt anarchists, you are moderate anarchists, there is nothing wrong with that, but in your little world everyone should be, isnt that a little too conformist for your ideology?

[Juggernaut]

Park Avenue:
I use the word unnatural as using drugs is what ultimately separates you from nature. In other words: you get wiped out.

Drug use is about altering consciousness cause your normal mindset is too painful a state. Yes, that's very normal and should be embraced

Tell me about a book that causes you to sitt in your own excrement and not care! That book should be banned...

In what way are ignoring daily nurture/vitamine and excercise routines harmulf to others who are "weaker" and more likely to become addicted. Bad inspiration? In what way do you distribute harmful habits to othersby not taking your daily aerobics...

Just because you fancy your little friday (I hope not weekday ) entertainment which basically's pretty dull anyway doesn't mean weaker persons life should be gamled with. Why is it that the people telling me "I'm strong, I can handle this" always are the people that end up in rehab? Be creative instead of using such crap...

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Park Avenue


Assuming your apple on the market is an analogy for all goods..?

Because then there'd be no incentive at all to create wealth. And creating wealth for yourself is by no means a zero-sum game, or even necessarily a game where others need to pay for your benefit.

Errr... If I can't afford an apple because you want to get rich I do pay for your benefit.

[Kuciwalker]

Errr... If I can't afford an apple because you want to get rich I do pay for your benefit.

If you can't afford the apple, you don't buy the apple. How does he get rich? How did you pay money?

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by skywalker

Errr... If I can't afford an apple because you want to get rich I do pay for your benefit.

If you can't afford the apple, you don't buy the apple. How does he get rich? How did you pay money?

He advocates a system where not everyone can afford an apple and where he can get rich. The people who can't afford apples pay for him to get rich.

[Kuciwalker]

He advocates a system where not everyone can afford an apple and where he can get rich. The people who can't afford apples pay for him to get rich.

No they don't - if they can't afford it, they don't pay anything. They just don't get anything either.

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by skywalker

He advocates a system where not everyone can afford an apple and where he can get rich. The people who can't afford apples pay for him to get rich.

No they don't - if they can't afford it, they don't pay anything. They just don't get anything either.

I'm not talking about paying with money. I'm talking about paying with blood.

[Kuciwalker]

I'm not talking about paying with money. I'm talking about paying with blood.

Umm.... where are you paying with "blood"?

[Berzerker]

Juggernaut -

We must also make sure that this help will be uniformly handed out, with exactly the same amount each month. I would like to see how this would be guaranteed by charity.

I'd like to see several million dollars in my bank account, that doesn't create for me the right to steal from others.

Why should anyone be punished?

That's what happens when drugs aren't legal, people get punished for using them.

And why should anyone use drugs at all?

Why not? I can't speak for anyone else but I used them because they were fun to use.

It provides an unnatural and possibly harmful escapism

"Unnatural"? What does that mean? And what does "escapism" mean? Does that mean having fun is "escapism"? Oh boy, let's see you apply that standard to everything in life...

and the two substitutes are much better:
1). Medical attention with therapy and possibly medication treatment from a physician who knows exactly what different drugs will help you.

And what if people don't want your "treatment"? Jail time? Btw, physicians don't know exactly what different drugs will do to you, more people die from over the counter and prescription drugs every year than all the illegal drugs combined.

2. ) Getting a controlled high with nice people in a bar and perhaps alcohol.

Pardon me, but not everyone likes booze and you lack the moral authority to decide for everyone else that if they want to have fun, alcohol is the only "drug" they can use.

Hypocrite, why alcohol and not "softer" drugs you say? Because "soft drugs" leads to "hard drugs", whilst alcohol is many times less likely and we have to draw the line somewhere.

Where do you get this nonsense? First, "gateway" drugs is bogus "science" and highly illogical on it's face. Yeah, if you use pot your brain will desire cocaine. That's how "gateway" drugs suppoosedly work. No, the people who are pushing this gateway drug nonsense see 2 groups of people - 1 that has a higher proclivity to use drugs and a 2nd that lacks this proclivity - and they conclude there is something about the drugs that induce a desire to use other drugs. The reality is some people are more inclined to use drugs than other people and that's why the first group is more likely to try different drugs. It has nothing to do with the drugs but with human nature. Some people love to seek thrills and engage in all sorts of dangerous activities like rock climbing and sky diving, does that mean the first risky activity they engaged in was a "gateway" activity? I've played many sports in my life, if basketball was my first, is basketball a "gateway" sport? And when you say "we" have to draw the line somewhere, who appointed you the line drawer? YOU want the line drawn so don't cite others as your authority.

Believe me, I've seen my best friends been sucked in to this pile of **** and hearing your friend tell you "I have ****loads of fun!!!" while his swollen, black and scared eyes are telling you a totally different story is still darn creepy.

Which is why I said it is immoral to punish the people who don't over indulge because of the people who do. Some people die from alcoholism, is that a moral reason to punish everyone who uses alcohol? Of course not! Btw, if we asked everyone who has ever used a recreational drug which drug they first used, alcohol and tobacco would probably be at or near the top of the list so how you concluded alcohol is the least likely to "induce" other drug use is "escapism".

[Ben Kenobi]

Some people die from alcoholism, is that a moral reason to punish everyone who uses alcohol? Of course not!

Here in Canada, the person who sells beer to an obviously inebriated person can be held liable. They have courses instructing servers to properly seve alcohol to people to help them stay inside their limits.

Irresponsible use of alcohol does encourage restrictions since it means people are having problems controlling themselves when given ample opportunity to do so.

One could find a moral reason to restrict the amount of alcohol sold to anyone at one time to reduce the risk of one person drinking themselves to death.

[Berzerker]

Ben -

Here in Canada, the person who sells beer to an obviously inebriated person can be held liable. They have courses instructing servers to properly seve alcohol to people to help them stay inside their limits.

Yes, personal responsibility is sorely lacking here too. Enterprising lawyers always seek the deepest pockets while dreaming up ways to sue people.

Irresponsible use of alcohol does encourage restrictions since it means people are having problems controlling themselves when given ample opportunity to do so.

Will Canadian lawyers start suing supermarkets for selling more beer than can be responsibally consumed in 1 day?

One could find a moral reason to restrict the amount of alcohol sold to anyone at one time to reduce the risk of one person drinking themselves to death.

When you find it, let us know. That argument leads to a ban on guns, sharp pointed knives (a boom for the plastic utensil industry), and cars made out of foam rubber. Shall I continue?

[Theben]

He isn't being penalized. He pays the same for his apple as everyone else. If everyone pays the same percentage of tax then everyone's burden is the same.

The point being a poor person must use a greater amount of discretionary income just to support themselves, and by instituting a flat tax the govt would have to increase the tax % of the lower income brackets. That puts an extra burden on poor & lower middle class workers.

Why do you rate the opinions of the poor and uneducated so highly?

I.e., prove to me that libertarianism isn't just a reaction by upper middle class/upper class whining about taxes.

Me: I make roughly 9,000 a year on good years.

I do not have the privilage of having my education paid for by my parents..... allthough they had enough money to save for my education, they chose to spend it on other things, like my girlfriend's parents, and like a lot of kids I know.

So that would make you a "student"? Read the directions!

[St Leo]

Originally posted by Japher
At heart, everyone wants power... Libertarianism prevents such a thing.

No, a democratic tax-funded government prevents such a thing.

Originally posted by Park Avenue So if you are in favour of multiculturalism, it also follows that you have strong tendencies towards libertarianism.

Uh, no, it doesn't. Multiculturalism goes hand in hand with modern liberalism, not libertarianism. 55% of Toronto's 4.6 million are foreign-born, but we are about as laissez-faire as my mousewheel.

In the last provincial election, the multicultural Torontonians were twice as likely to vote for the New Democrats than the monocultural rural crazies.

The problem is, however, that they are the communist of the right in that they rely too much on individual/coorprate contributions to society.

Yep, you got that right. US works because it is is not Libertarian just like Canada and Europe work because they are not Communist. Any ideologically-pure crusader jihad to bring either closer to the truth would impoverish the people and weaken the country.

Change should be evolutionary, not revolutionary. Economy is not a science.

[Berzerker]

Juggernaut -

I use the word unnatural as using drugs is what ultimately separates you from nature. In other words: you get wiped out.

Many drugs are natural, and your characterisation of getting "wiped-out" is intentionally loaded, i.e., spin. Of all the drugs I've used, only alcohol "wiped" me out after over indulging... But that's the one drug you want kept legal, oh the irony.

Drug use is about altering consciousness cause your normal mindset is too painful a state. Yes, that's very normal and should be embraced

Huh? Obviously some people use drugs because of emotional or physical pain (my God, abolish all painkillers too), but we don't accuse schizophrenics of "escapism" for seeking relief from their "normal" mindset. And you are again spinning, it's not about "embracing" escapism, you want it outlawed. That means you want the state to dictate our state of mind. Do the "re-education centers" employed by the communists sound vaguely familiar?

Tell me about a book that causes you to sitt in your own excrement and not care! That book should be banned...

You mean like a drunk in an alley? Yeah, of the 80 or so million people who've used illegal drugs, just how many do you think sat in their own excrement. If you want to use worst case scenarios, we'd ban food because of obesity induced death. Btw, wrt your "gateway" drug argument, how do you explain that of the ~80 million people who've used illegal drugs, only a tiny percentage used heroin?

In what way are ignoring daily nurture/vitamine and excercise routines harmulf to others who are "weaker" and more likely to become addicted.

Make up your mind, you've been arguing drugs should be illegal because of the potential harm to the user. So, not exercising and poor nutrition is potentially harmful to couch potatoes. Be consistent. I know you can't because consistency exposes the hypocrisy in your argument.

In what way do you distribute harmful habits to othersby not taking your daily aerobics...

Like father, like son? If a parent's drug use increases the chance their kid will use drugs, then that holds true for other behaviors, including being a couch potato...

Just because you fancy your little friday (I hope not weekday ) entertainment which basically's pretty dull anyway doesn't mean weaker persons life should be gamled with.

Who's gambling? Are you now responsible for alcoholics if you drink booze? That's your argument...

Why is it that the people telling me "I'm strong, I can handle this" always are the people that end up in rehab? Be creative instead of using such crap...

I've never been to rehab, your arguments are based on generalisations. And most of the people who have been to rehab were coerced by the courts so it's illogical to point to rehab stats as proof of some problem. Do you also accuse black people of being criminals based on the fact some black people commit crimes?

One last point, do you have proof drug prohibition has reduced consumption? If not, why would you advocate a policy that results in all sorts of societal pathologies without achieving any successes? When was the last time you heard of alcohol dealers having shootouts over marketshare? Oh, if your answer is alcohol prohibition, take a few minutes to think about that...