Every individual should be a libretarian at heart

[Japher]

At heart, everyone wants power... Libertarianism prevents such a thing.

So, you are wrong... sorry.

[Caligastia]

Originally posted by MikeH
Ok, say I kill a poor guy a tramp/bum. For no reason, just for fun.

He's got no family, there are a few people who know him but they haven't got any money either only what they can beg/steal. So who's going to pay a small fortune for police call out fees, trial and many years of inprisonment. Or do we just have summary justice meeted out by 200AD style judges? In which case who pays for them?

Libertarians believe in having a police force. I don't see why this case would be treated any differently in a libertarian world.

[MikeH]

Libertarianism seems to give all power to rich people, and remove everything from the poor.

[MikeH]

Originally posted by Caligastia


Libertarians believe in having a police force. I don't see why this case would be treated any differently in a libertarian world.

What, they believe in making everyone pay for a police force? You'd need a government for that, and taxes! What if I want to pay for my own protection? You can't make me contribute, it's immoral!

[Caligastia]

Originally posted by MikeH


What, they believe in making everyone pay for a police force? You'd need a government for that, and taxes! What if I want to pay for my own protection? You can't make me contribute, it's immoral!

That's what an anarchist would say. Libertarians still believe in government, just limited government. Basically the government should be limited to a police force, a military, and a justice system.

[Solly]

The libertarian argument sounds quite persuading and indeed should be applied in some areas (e.g. when it comes to victimless crimes, such as drug-taking). Yet I prefer to live in a community than every man for himself. Society is crumbling around us due to this sort of philosophy.

We need to re-instate community spirit. The problem is, people only seem to feel a sense of community when they are surrounded by people perceived as similar. And as we know, multi"culturalism" goes against this. Good community is difficult, if not impossible to achieve in multicultural societies.

So if you are in favour of multiculturalism, it also follows that you have strong tendencies towards libertarianism.

[Japher]

IMO Libertarians are the easiest to deal with, as I see their views more to the right than to the left.

The problem is, however, that they are the communist of the right in that they rely too much on individual/coorprate contributions to society. While this idea is nice it needs to be legislated, because man is inately greedy.

So, while you can say that Libertarianism is a promoter of freedom I say they promote anarchy. Laissez-faire politics is one thing Libertarianism is another, and, it is something that I am not at heart.

[MikeH]

Originally posted by Caligastia


That's what an anarchist would say. Libertarians still believe in government, just limited government. Basically the government should be limited to a police force, a military, and a justice system.

And obviously you need to add tax collection (general treasury) to that as well and some kind of electoral system, so that the people can choose who spends their money on defence and justice.

How do you deal with other governments? You might believe in free trade etc but they probably won't, also wars are expensive so best to avoid those as much as possible. That'll require some kind of diplomatic section to the government.

You're going to need some way for people to find out what the government are doing as well. That'd be some kind of press corps.

[Solly]

I'm with Mike

[MikeH]

Shocking isn't it.

Basically this libertarian ideal sounds like something out of a hellish cyberpunk novel.

[Theben]

Anarchists have a tendency to become libertyants as they get older.
Presumably that's because they have more money. Libertyranny benefits those who have more wealth.

[Caligastia]

Originally posted by MikeH


And obviously you need to add tax collection (general treasury) to that as well and some kind of electoral system, so that the people can choose who spends their money on defence and justice.

How do you deal with other governments? You might believe in free trade etc but they probably won't, also wars are expensive so best to avoid those as much as possible. That'll require some kind of diplomatic section to the government.

You're going to need some way for people to find out what the government are doing as well. That'd be some kind of press corps.

I think you still have the wrong idea about how things work under a libertarian government. Perhaps 'libertarian' means something different in europe. Have a look at the American libertarian website if you're curious.

I can't say I agree with everything the libertarians propose, but mostly I do.

[Rogan Josh]

Part of the problem is how you define 'hurting someone'. Things like murder and assault are fine, but what about blackmail? Probably fine too, but is it not my right to make money from someone else's misfortune?

If I am born into a poor family who cannot afford to pay my education is that my fault? Why should I be penalised? Is my freedom not removed by other people having a better education, since I won't have such a high standard of living?

If I deny someone a job because of the colour of their skin, am I not hurting them? If you make me hire them, are you not restricting my freedom?

We all have to make compromises to live in a comunal society - but what if I don't want to compromise? What if I want to live the life of a native American and hunt wild buffalo and live in a tent? Are you not impeding my freedom by saying I cannot? Is your insistence in the existence of private property not impeding my freedom?

Almost every facet of government which exists in our society today was put there in oder (in principle) to protect someone's freedoms. While some of them may have gone over the top, are you not removing freedom by taking them away?

[Caligastia]

I think you guys need to talk to a true libertarian if you want answers to these questions. Someone like David Floyd or Berzerker.

[MikeH]

Originally posted by Caligastia


I think you still have the wrong idea about how things work under a libertarian government. Perhaps 'libertarian' means something different in europe. Have a look at the American libertarian website if you're curious.

I can't say I agree with everything the libertarians propose, but mostly I do.

It seems a very American concept. I've never heard the term 'libertarian' used other than in the context of a discussion of US politics.

As Rogon Josh said, us Europeans believe our governments are protecting the freedoms of the majority. If the rich few feel hard done by, oh well, at least they are rich!