Assisted Reproduction bill passes.

[Dinner]

Get religion out of science and help those poor people who we have the ability to help!

[Ben Kenobi]

Number of Religious trolls in this thread alone:

5... and counting...

[The Mad Monk]

Originally posted by David Floyd


Good!

Science should not be restricted by the government, and the government certainly should not use religion as an excuse to restrict anything.

Do you play SMAC?

If you do, do you favor University of Planet?

[aneeshm]

I'll try to make some things clear . I would define the beginning of life as the time an organism becomes self-aware . In human terms , that is the only life that has any meaning (at least for a rational human , not a religious one).

Secondly , Ben Kenobi , you (probably)deliberately misconstrue what others have said . There is a major difference between conducting experiments on a human being who is self-aware (against his will) , and conducting experiments on a few cells which were going to be discarded anyway .

I also support the hervesting of eggs BEFORE a certain stage in developement is reached (and with the mother's consent). We could improve the human quality of life a lot thanks to this , but religious beliefs , which have held us back for so long (remember the dark ages , anyone) threaten to slow science down again .

You people who base your arguments on religion make me sick .

[Jon Miller]

I didn't know that people needed hepl

jon Miller

[Ben Kenobi]

There is a major difference between conducting experiments on a human being who is self-aware (against his will) , and conducting experiments on a few cells which were going to be discarded anyway.

That's the statement I was looking for. I want to discuss this whole concept of a 'surplus' embryo? What makes an embryo 'surplus' and thus only suited for the trash?

Secondly, what is this difference? Am I allowed to conduct experiments on someone who is in a coma because they are not self-aware?

We do not have the right to do experiments resulting in the death of the human subject, unless they can give consent themselves. We do not allow a parent to serve as a proxy by subjecting their child to an experiment that may result in the child's death. Why then should we allow parents to subject their embryo to experiments that always result in the death of the embryo?

Edit:
almost missed yet another troll of religion. Show me where any of my arguments have brought religion into this debate.

[Ben Kenobi]

Jon:

Yes, there are people who may be helped using embryonic stem cells. It remains to be seen whether any of the promised benefits will actually occur.

Secondly, there are ethical alternatives to harvesting embryos, using a person's own adult stem cells. We do not need to kill embryos in order to acheive the same scientific results.

[DinoDoc]

Originally posted by aneeshm
I'll try to make some things clear . I would define the beginning of life as the time an organism becomes self-aware .

What's that? Around 2? 3 years of age? Or would you like to use the Catholic standard for the age of reason and say 7 years old?

[SlowwHand]

Re: Assisted Reproduction bill passes.

Dang. I thought this was something that might help Starchild with his copying and faxing.

As you were.

[St Leo]

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi
Sound doesn't require us to kill somebody in order for us to investigate.

Neither does this, but you already knew I was going to say this.

That's a very mechanistic perspective. People have kids just to make sure they pass their genes? They can do that equally well by donating a sperm or their eggs. I'm trying to get across the point that many women enjoy being pregnant and taking care of their child, it's not just about passing on genes.

No, genes have people to be passed on. Genes aren't especially intelligent, so the point of in vitro fertilisation hasn't quite sunk into them.

Originally posted by The Mad Monk Do you play SMAC?If you do, do you favor University of Planet?

My factions of choice in descending order are University, Peacekeepers, and Morganites. The spirituality of Gaians was something of a turn-off, so I never really got around to playing them. Human Hive, Believers, and Spartans are far too idealogically different from me.

[David Floyd]

Such a squishy term, 'sameness.' You and I are different, yet no one would consider me to be more valuable than you. Care to refine your term? What differences should we ignore?

I'm not a doctor, and have no scientific training. I defer to the experts.

Secondly, why would the majority of opinion necessarily be right?

It wouldn't, necessarily, but by definition the majority of CREDIBLE medical opinion carries more weight than your opinion or my opinion.

Not wanting to do research on human subjects without their consent counts as an emotional appeal? Funny, I thought personal autonomy comes at the heart of bioethics.

No, the emotional appeal is your use of the term "human subjects" when you mean "embryos" or "fetuses". Even assuming for a moment that your opinion is correct, the use of the term "human subjects" carries different connotations, and you are using it as an emotional appeal. You are drawing a connection between an embryo and, say, me strapped against my will to a lab table getting an anal probe. Right or wrong, you need to state your argument better.

Show me where any of my arguments have brought religion into this debate.

Are your beliefs on this subject based in any part on your religion? That is, are your views about the starting point of human life, etc., based upon your religious beliefs? If the answer is "yes", you are bringing in religion. If the answer is "no", then I apologize for assuming so, but I'm still going to assume doctors have more credibility than you do.

[molly bloom]

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi
Number of Religious trolls in this thread alone:

5... and counting...

Including or excluding yourself?

Queue Monty Python and 'Every sperm is sacred....'

'Unborn children'. Tell me- is that emotive phrase used from a purely scientific viewpoint, or might there just be a little bit of sectarianism colouring your choice of those words?

[Ben Kenobi]

Tell me- is that emotive phrase used from a purely scientific viewpoint, or might there just be a little bit of sectarianism colouring your choice of those words?

What's so religious about the term 'unborn child' as opposed to a born child?

The reason I use this term rather than 'fetus' or 'embryo' is because it can apply to all children inside the womb, rather than those from a certain age.

I prefer to keep the developmental terms age-specific, as per their scientific definitions.

[Ben Kenobi]

Are your beliefs on this subject based in any part on your religion? That is, are your views about the starting point of human life, etc., based upon your religious beliefs? If the answer is "yes", you are bringing in religion. If the answer is "no", then I apologize for assuming so, but I'm still going to assume doctors have more credibility than you do.

I was a prolifer before I became a Christian, so my beliefs that an unborn child is a human person can be based on purely secular terms.

My favourite argument starts with the premise that an unborn child is a living human person. He or she is living because living things can only come from other living things, they are human because their father or mother is human, and they are persons because there are no significant differences between an unborn child and an infant.

All the differences between the two merely have to do with degree of development, which goes on a continuum from conception, until you die. Conception is the only place where a new person comes into being with their entire genetic code formed from the union of the sperm and egg.

[Spiffor]

If the article is trustworthy, I agree with the bill 100%

- Human cloning should not be done in today's society. It should only be done once we completely redefine our concepts of individualism.

- Stem cell research can brin excellent good news to medical research

- It is good news that in-vitro reproduction will be regulated. It'll probably avoid quite many malpractices.