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  • Assisted Reproduction bill passes.



    MPs vote to allow use of embryos in research

    Amid bitter divisions, sweeping legislation passes Commons but faces Senate fight

    By BRIAN LAGHI
    With a report from Campbell Clark
    Wednesday, October 29, 2003 - Page A1

    OTTAWA -- Federal MPs have approved legislation paving the way for the limited use of human embryos in medical research after a morally charged debate that divided the governing Liberals.

    The measure is part of a wide-ranging bill that also regulates human assisted reproduction and bans human cloning. The legislation is hailed by its supporters as a badly needed set of guidelines for the controversial science and attacked by its critics as morally questionable.

    The legislation passed 149-109, a more convincing margin than some opponents had at first predicted. It made it through the House despite the objections of 16 Liberal backbenchers, the entire Canadian Alliance and Bloc Québécois caucuses and five Progressive Conservative MPs. The New Democrats voted in favour of the bill, as did 133 Liberals and four Tories; 41 MPs did not vote.

    It must now make its way through the Senate, where it is likely to face more challenges before being approved.

    "As far as I'm concerned, it will become law," said Health Minister Anne McLellan, who shepherded the legislation through the Commons.

    Paul Szabo, a Liberal MP who spearheaded government backbenchers against the bill, pledged to fight it in the Senate. "I'm not going to be rolled over on this one," he said. "I'm going to fight it to the end."

    The need for the legislation was flagged 10 years ago when a blue-chip committee produced a report calling for immediate regulation. A later bill died in the House six years ago.

    The most controversial portion of the proposed legislation would allow a government-appointed agency to approve using embryos left over from fertility clinics for stem-cell research. Many scientists consider human embryos the best source of stem cells, a promising component of regenerative medicine that may one day provide treatments for several conditions, including Parkinson's disease.

    A spokeswoman for the Parkinson Society of Canada said the proposed law will give up to 100,000 Canadians suffering from the condition reason to be optimistic about improved therapies.

    "We have been strong supporters of this right from the beginning," Suzanne Tobin said. "A lot of people feel that this is an area of real hope."

    Margaret Turner, 67, who has Parkinson's disease, said yesterday that she wouldn't support the bill if it would create human embryos for research.

    "But if they are left over, rather than have them destroyed indiscriminately, I think it's a good idea to see them used," she said.

    Ms. Turner, who was diagnosed 10 years ago after retiring as an office manager, said she exercises regularly and keeps herself healthy for the day when a cure or a better therapy might be found. She said she is hopeful for improved treatment -- "if not for me, then for other people."

    Ms. Turner, who watched the debate closely, takes medication three times a day and could move to other therapies if her symptoms worsen.

    The discussion on the reproductive technology bill over the past year or so has been reminiscent of the abortion debate, with some MPs calling embryos the most basic form of human life.

    Canadian Alliance Leader Stephen Harper said enough adult stem cells are available for research that human embryos are not needed.

    "I think that there is lots of room for scientific progress with adult stem-cell research. I do not believe we need to be going down the route of embryonic stem-cell research," he said.

    Mr. Szabo said the bill's language would allow human reproductive material to be implanted into non-human life forms, an assertion Ms. McLellan rejects.

    "This bill is fatally flawed, there's no doubt about it," he said.

    Aside from the use of embryos for stem-cell research, the bill touches on several areas.

    It bans activities such as cloning and the creation of human-animal hybrids. It also prohibits the sale of sperm and ova and makes commercial surrogacy illegal. Surrogate mothers can, however, be reimbursed for expenses and loss of work-related income.

    The bill would also create the Assisted Human Reproduction Agency of Canada to monitor clinics that deal with in vitro fertilizations and fertility. The agency would be involved in licensing, protecting the health of those undergoing fertility procedures, and in the collection of data.

    Jocelyn Downie, Canada research chair in health and law policy at Dalhousie University, said the issue of assisted reproduction has been somewhat lost in all the debate involving embryonic stem-cell research.

    She said yesterday that the bill is the last chance to bring in a regulatory framework for assisted human reproduction. Prof. Downie and a group of 64 other Canadian health-care, ethics and law experts issued an open letter on Monday in support of the bill.

    Prof. Downie said that, currently, much of what takes place at in vitro and fertility clinics across the country is unregulated.

    "The message has to get out that if we don't get this we're not going to get legislation because nobody is going to touch this again," she said.

    The government appointed a royal commission on reproductive technologies in 1989.

    New Democrat MP Judy Wasylycia-Leis welcomed the legislation, noting that the NDP got Ms. McLellan to pledge that she will try to ensure gender parity on the board of the new monitoring agency. The restiveness of the Liberal back bench forced the government earlier this fall to make a deal with the NDP for its votes.

    She added, however, that she is concerned that the bill may not make it through the Senate before the Liberal government shuts down the House.

    Ms. Wasylycia-Leis and other MPs have speculated that Prime Minister Jean Chrétien may prorogue Parliament at the end of next week because of the coming leadership change in the Liberal Party. A prorogation would kill all legislation that hasn't passed both Houses of Parliament.

    "I think the bad outcome on behalf of all these delays on the part of Paul Szabo is that it may not get through the Senate before Parliament prorogues," she said.

    Ms. McLellan said she has spoken to Senator Michael Kirby, who heads a Senate committee that will review the bill. "I have every confidence that Senator Kirby will take this legislation and do a thorough job of reviewing it and move forward," she said.

    She also predicted that even if the House prorogues, the bill may come back to the Senate in its current form in a new government led by Paul Martin, who will become Liberal leader in November and prime minister when Mr. Chrétien steps down early next year. Parliamentary rules allow for government to pass a motion to resurrect a bill killed by prorogation.



    Not happy. This bill went to committee last year, split evenly between the members. None of the real amendments proposed by Szabo passed, so it looks like Canada has no effective ban on human cloning.

    41 MPs did not vote.
    My cowardly MP has yet to vote on a controversial bill.
    C'mon!

    New Democrat MP Judy Wasylycia-Leis welcomed the legislation, noting that the NDP got Ms. McLellan to pledge that she will try to ensure gender parity on the board of the new monitoring agency.
    The NDP would have voted against the bill before this agreement. Guess we know where their real priorities lie.
    28
    yes
    71.43%
    20
    no
    14.29%
    4
    In certain circumstances. (post below)
    7.14%
    2
    I agree with using banana embryos. ;)
    7.14%
    2
    Scouse Git (2) La Fayette Adam Smith Solomwi and Loinburger will not be forgotten.
    "Remember the night we broke the windows in this old house? This is what I wished for..."
    2015 APOLYTON FANTASY FOOTBALL CHAMPION!

  • #2
    Re: Assisted Reproduction bill passes.

    Originally posted by Ben Kenobi
    New Democrat MP Judy Wasylycia-Leis welcomed the legislation, noting that the NDP got Ms. McLellan to pledge that she will try to ensure gender parity on the board of the new monitoring agency.


    The NDP would have voted against the bill before this agreement. Guess we know where their real priorities lie.


    In the correct place? Gender parity is far more important than neo-luddite legislation. If you want to prevent abuse of biotech, get rid of patents.

    I am somewhat concerned by the provision that bans the growth of human embryos outside a human for more than 15 days. That basically nips research into artificial wombs in the bud by rendering a successful result pointless.

    In the long term, that means that human females are, on average, doomed to two years of disability in a stable population.

    Of course, those are still very much a pipedream -- hey, you figure out how to get appropriate antibodies generated adn delivered -- so I don't mind this law being on the book for a century or so.
    Blog | Civ2 Scenario League | leo.petr at gmail.com

    Comment


    • #3
      Neo luddite!

      Why should we research on embryos? What possible benefits could derive from them that cannot be found through other sources?

      I am somewhat concerned by the provision that bans the growth of human embryos outside a human for more than 15 days.
      That's interesting language. You say growth like we were talking about plants that we harvest.

      doomed to two years of disability in a stable population.
      And I thought feminists believe that women ought to be able to have both a child and a career.

      Last I checked a woman does not get chained to her bed for nine months when pregnant.

      When was the last time you saw someone voluntarily submit to being crippled? Yet you see many women want to be pregnant. Pregnancy is not a disability.
      Scouse Git (2) La Fayette Adam Smith Solomwi and Loinburger will not be forgotten.
      "Remember the night we broke the windows in this old house? This is what I wished for..."
      2015 APOLYTON FANTASY FOOTBALL CHAMPION!

      Comment


      • #4
        so it looks like Canada has no effective ban on human cloning.
        Good!

        Science should not be restricted by the government, and the government certainly should not use religion as an excuse to restrict anything.
        Follow me on Twitter: http://twitter.com/DaveDaDouche
        Read my seldom updated blog where I talk to myself: http://davedadouche.blogspot.com/

        Comment


        • #5
          Science should not be restricted by the government, and the government certainly should not use religion as an excuse to restrict anything.


          So what about using human subjects in experimentations against their will? Would you say that this ought to be allowed?

          Surely science cannot be hindered from the pursuit of knowledge by mere ethics. And where has anyone spoke about religion? Experimentation with human cloning will result in the death of many unborn children.
          Scouse Git (2) La Fayette Adam Smith Solomwi and Loinburger will not be forgotten.
          "Remember the night we broke the windows in this old house? This is what I wished for..."
          2015 APOLYTON FANTASY FOOTBALL CHAMPION!

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by David Floyd
            government certainly should not use religion as an excuse to restrict anything.
            Bioethics isn't good enough for you?
            I make no bones about my moral support for [terrorist] organizations. - chegitz guevara
            For those who aspire to live in a high cost, high tax, big government place, our nation and the world offers plenty of options. Vermont, Canada and Venezuela all offer you the opportunity to live in the socialist, big government paradise you long for. –Senator Rubio

            Comment


            • #7
              So what about using human subjects in experimentations against their will? Would you say that this ought to be allowed?
              Obviously not. And when you can find me a majority of credible scientific opinion that agrees with you on the question of fetuses being the same as you or I, then we'll talk.

              Surely science cannot be hindered from the pursuit of knowledge by mere ethics.
              That depends. Is the "ethics violation" also immoral?

              And where has anyone spoke about religion? Experimentation with human cloning will result in the death of many unborn children.
              Clearly, the fact that you are calling fetuses, or cloned fetuses, children implies that you are using religion. You're making an emotional appeal based on religion, with little regard for the weight of scientific opinion.

              I'm not qualified, medically speaking, to have an opinion on questions like "when does life begin", "are fetuses the same as us", etc., so I'll simply defer to the experts in this case.
              Follow me on Twitter: http://twitter.com/DaveDaDouche
              Read my seldom updated blog where I talk to myself: http://davedadouche.blogspot.com/

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Ben Kenobi
                Neo luddite!

                Why should we research on embryos?


                They are there. Willfully shunning knowledge is unwise. You don't know what you don't know until you know it. People didn't mess around with electricity for centuries just to allow Fox News to come into existence. They did it because it was there.

                Had Queen Victoria assembled a symposium and requested the development of a system for the recording, transmission, and display of images and sound, she would have been greeted with scepticism. Science is not about mission statements.

                That's interesting language. You say growth like we were talking about plants that we harvest.


                Hmm. Increase in size? Gradual self-elaboration? Organic von Neumann process? Numerical expansion of a cellular colony with specialist components?

                Fine, you describe it.

                And I thought feminists believe that women ought to be able to have both a child and a career.


                There is no ought.

                Anyways, I never said I opposed having children. I said that there should be an option of not having to temporarily hamper your mobility while the children don't yet exist.

                Last I checked a woman does not get chained to her bed for nine months when pregnant.


                My bad. I exaggerated a bit.:P

                When was the last time you saw someone voluntarily submit to being crippled?


                In real life, never, though one hears stories of people refusing medical treatment for religious reasons.

                Yet you see many women want to be pregnant. Pregnancy is not a disability.


                Uh, it's hard to argue with 3.8 billion years of evolution. At the moment, women who don't want to experience pregnancy -- BTW, "to be pregnant" is a metaphor for "reproduce" that's inappropriate for my point of view -- don't have their genes carry on. That's a good incentive for not chucking out the multiplicative instinct.

                Pregnancy is like going into space, except that the view is lousy and you have a lot more time for throwing up.
                Blog | Civ2 Scenario League | leo.petr at gmail.com

                Comment


                • #9
                  This is great news.
                  Next up is the ban on religion and heterosexual reproduction.

                  "The issue is there are still many people out there that use religion as a crutch for bigotry and hate. Like Ben."
                  Ben Kenobi: "That means I'm doing something right. "

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Ben Kenobi
                    So what about using human subjects in experimentations against their will? Would you say that this ought to be allowed?


                    No, that, among other things, should not be allowed.
                    Blog | Civ2 Scenario League | leo.petr at gmail.com

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      He's obviously trying to draw an analogy between chaining you to a bed in a lab and giving you an anal probe, and human cloning. It's an emotional appeal with no real value here - the abortion thread is down the road.
                      Follow me on Twitter: http://twitter.com/DaveDaDouche
                      Read my seldom updated blog where I talk to myself: http://davedadouche.blogspot.com/

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        David Floyd:

                        And when you can find me a majority of credible scientific opinion that agrees with you on the question of fetuses being the same as you or I, then we'll talk.
                        Such a squishy term, 'sameness.' You and I are different, yet no one would consider me to be more valuable than you. Care to refine your term? What differences should we ignore?

                        Secondly, why would the majority of opinion necessarily be right?

                        It's an emotional appeal with no real value here


                        Not wanting to do research on human subjects without their consent counts as an emotional appeal? Funny, I thought personal autonomy comes at the heart of bioethics.
                        Last edited by Ben Kenobi; October 30, 2003, 01:59.
                        Scouse Git (2) La Fayette Adam Smith Solomwi and Loinburger will not be forgotten.
                        "Remember the night we broke the windows in this old house? This is what I wished for..."
                        2015 APOLYTON FANTASY FOOTBALL CHAMPION!

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          St. Leo:

                          They are there. Willfully shunning knowledge is unwise. You don't know what you don't know until you know it. People didn't mess around with electricity for centuries just to allow Fox News to come into existence. They did it because it was there.
                          Well, you are just sitting in your chair. Does that mean I can conduct experiments on you just because you are there?

                          Had Queen Victoria assembled a symposium and requested the development of a system for the recording, transmission, and display of images and sound, she would have been greeted with scepticism. Science is not about mission statements.
                          Sound doesn't require us to kill somebody in order for us to investigate.

                          Fine, you describe it.
                          Bad point on my part... Development would be a better word.

                          Uh, it's hard to argue with 3.8 billion years of evolution. At the moment, women who don't want to experience pregnancy -- BTW, "to be pregnant" is a metaphor for "reproduce" that's inappropriate for my point of view -- don't have their genes carry on. That's a good incentive for not chucking out the multiplicative instinct.
                          That's a very mechanistic perspective. People have kids just to make sure they pass their genes? They can do that equally well by donating a sperm or their eggs. I'm trying to get across the point that many women enjoy being pregnant and taking care of their child, it's not just about passing on genes.
                          Last edited by Ben Kenobi; October 30, 2003, 01:57.
                          Scouse Git (2) La Fayette Adam Smith Solomwi and Loinburger will not be forgotten.
                          "Remember the night we broke the windows in this old house? This is what I wished for..."
                          2015 APOLYTON FANTASY FOOTBALL CHAMPION!

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            No, I cannot truely vote for the harvesting of eggs...

                            Life sure is a precious commodity...

                            we humans do not have a great track record of playing GOD/Creator.
                            Gurka 17, People of the Valley
                            I am of the Horde.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Harvesting of Eggs? Of course!! We should allow it in the US, but we have moronic religious folk controlling the agenda in this area .

                              we humans do not have a great track record of playing GOD/Creator.


                              Actually I think we have a DAMNED good record of doing so. We've cured polio, TB, etc. We've raised the living age from 30ish to 70ish, all because we decided to play 'God'.
                              “I give you a new commandment, that you love one another. Just as I have loved you, you also should love one another. By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another.”
                              - John 13:34-35 (NRSV)

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