Assisted Reproduction bill passes.

[St Leo]

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi
I was a prolifer before I became a Christian, so my beliefs that an unborn child is a human person can be based on purely secular terms.

Converts are always the worst. ^-^

[Kirnwaffen]

My sole condition on the harvesting of human embryos is that they not be conceived for that specific purpose. As this bill facillitates that, I'm all for it.

[Velociryx]

for the folks who are attempting to make the argument:

Fetus/Embryo = Human Subject

I would ask then....why are they not referred to as human at that stage of their development?

They can become humans, yes....but the ability to become a thing and BEING that thing are not the same. If you doubt that, take several tons of concrete, glass, and steel, and put them in your back yard.

Do you have a skyscraper?

There is some debate about exactly *when* HUMAN life begins....we don't really know, but we know some places when it doesn't, an in the aforementioned fetuses and embryos....it doesn't.

-=Vel=-
$0.02
PS: For those of you who DO buy into the fetus = human argument, I would ask....when's your birthday and how do you measure it?

Seems to me that if you believe in your heart of hearts what you're saying, you'd measure your birthday from the time of conception....just a thought.

[tinyp3nis]

What is it that makes it human the instant the sperm scores? Why not before that? Because they weren't in the same location? In so little time there is no change at all in them compared to what they were just second ago when the sperm was digging its way in. If you believe in souls, does it get its soul issued to it then?

[Kuciwalker]

I'm not quite sure what the article is saying, but this is my view on the issue:

human cloning - somewhat bad, but also stupid; why can't you just make babies the normal way?

stem cell research - perfectly fine

actually cloning or producing babies to harvest their body parts - really really bad

[St Leo]

Well, most of the time the Bible has the soul issued at birth rather than conception IIRC.

[MrFun]

The fetus has this laptop while in the mother's womb, and he logs onto EBay to buy a soul.

Is that how it works???

[Nubclear]

INVADE CANADA!

[MrFun]

No -- it's "BLAME CANADA!"

Not, "INVADE CANADA!"

[St Leo]

Come get some, poser.

[aneeshm]

Let me clarify my position on this . I do not support harvesting embryos if they have reached a certain stage of their developement (capable of feeling pain , to take a basic example, ie , having a functioning CNS or brain) . Again , these must be embryos that were headed for the dustbin , like products of abortion . Also , nobody gets paid for them , to discourage conception just for this .

I also have absolutely no qualms about conducting experiments experiments on if the above criteria are met . Also , in no phase of the experiments should be embryo progress further , ie , make the transition from "discarded couple of cells" to "huamn in developement" .

Also , the post was not a troll against religion . It was an expression of my opinion of people who base their agruments on their personal religious beliefs , no matter how sacred or final those beliefs may seem to them . Also , I did not say that you were a person who did so . It was just meant to convey my idea that religion has no place in pure science . Indeed , we have the results of such interference throughout history , and are seeing them now (Vatican saying condoms are useless against HIV , etc) , and they have been uniformly disastrous .

If we want to nitpick about the time when an embryo makes the transition from a few indeterminate cells to a human , I'd leave that to the experts .

[Ben Kenobi]

They can become humans, yes....but the ability to become a thing and BEING that thing are not the same. If you doubt that, take several tons of concrete, glass, and steel, and put them in your back yard.

Do you have a skyscraper?

There is some debate about exactly *when* HUMAN life begins....we don't really know, but we know some places when it doesn't, an in the aforementioned fetuses and embryos....it doesn't.

Not a bad analogy, however it fails for a rather deep point. There is a difference between substance and property. Substance things can lose a part and still remain the same entity.

This is the difference between us and a skyscraper. A skyscraper will not grow and develop by itself, it requires people to construct the building. This is different from an unborn child in that the child will grow the same we we all do, with food and shelter.

There is no debate about when human life begins, at least not according to doctors and medical textbooks. They agree that human life begins at conception.

Now, suppose we agreed with your point that no one knows when human life begins. Does this mean that we are allowed to kill something we are not sure is human or not? It's like hunting, you don't pull the trigger until you know your target.

[Ben Kenobi]

Stem cell research can bring excellent good news to medical research

What if I could show you all ethical alternatives that do even better than embryonic stem cells? Would you agree with me to shift the research away from embryos to these other sources?

[Asher]

If you're against assisted reproduction, why don't you just not use it.

I don't understand why you feel you must convert everyone in your path.

If there's one thing people hate it's religious people all high-and-mighty dictating what people should or should not do.

[Ben Kenobi]

PS: For those of you who DO buy into the fetus = human argument, I would ask....when's your birthday and how do you measure it?

Why would my birthday be anything other than the date of my birth? I would date my conception and the beginning of my existence to nine months before my birth.

tinyp3nis:

In so little time there is no change at all in them compared to what they were just second ago when the sperm was digging its way in. If you believe in souls, does it get its soul issued to it then?

No, you get a very big change in the zygote as opposed to the egg and the sperm. This change can be represented in the genetic code of the zygote differing from either parent, unlike the sperm or the egg.