"God is bigger than Allah"

[Shi Huangdi]

Originally posted by St Leo
Calvinists and Catholics don't worship the same God.

Well, certain Calvinists do believe God predestined certain men to be damned from the beginning of time......

[Imran Siddiqui]

Well, certain Calvinists do believe God predestined certain men to be damned from the beginning of time......

I think it is the opposite. Certain Calvinisits believe that God predestined certain men to be SAVED from the beginning of time. The difference is subtle, but important .

[Ben Kenobi]

That's ok, because the "God" of the Bible is not referring to the same deity as Yahweh of the Torah .

You enjoying yourself, Imran?

Christians do not claim that they worship a different God, they just believe that Christ is the promised Messiah, while the Jews believe that the messiah is yet to come.

One could even say the same thing about Allah, in that the difference between Christians and Muslims is that the Muslims see Muhammed as the latest prophet of God, and that Jesus is just another prophet, like Moses.

All three of the peoples of the book trace origins to Abraham. In that the God of Abraham would be both the God of Isaac and of Ishmael.

I think it is the opposite. Certain Calvinisits believe that God predestined certain men to be SAVED from the beginning of time. The difference is subtle, but important.

Good. I'm impressed. Calvinists are very careful to say that God has certain peoples' names written in the book of life. It can be a very comforting thought to those who are already Christians to be among the elect, that this is where they were meant to be, for all time.

Now this does noy preclude any people from being saved since how do we know whether one person is or is not in the book of life?

Shi, I suggest you brush up on Calvinism. Just as Catholics do not believe in works being the route to salvation, neither do Calvinists consign people to hell.

[Imran Siddiqui]

One could even say the same thing about Allah

But Drake doesn't. So, if he's gonna be consistant he has to say that Christians are just believing in a different God .

It can be a very comforting thought to those who are already Christians to be among the elect

It can, but it also doesn't have to be. Just because you are a Christian doesn't mean you are among the 'elect', at least to original Calvinism. After all, how do you know if you have 'enough' faith (since no one has 100% faith... most people will not simply shrug off a loved one's death as being part of God's Plan).

neither do Calvinists consign people to hell

Well, they actually do. Calvinists consign people to heaven and hell. If people are predestined by God to be saved or damned (much fewer are saved, and not all Christians are) then you MUST consign people to Hell. Every major Christian sect really consigns people to the Satanic underworld.

[Ben Kenobi]

Since Muslims believe that they are following the "true" and most recent revelation, as opposed to Jews and Christians (just as Christians claim something similar over the Jews) who have "imperfect" ones, in essence there's just been a lot of co-opting and "retconning" going on....not really 3 different "Gods"...since none of them contemplates that.

JDG:

Muslims, unlike the Christians have far less justification for their revelation supplanting the old, than the Christians did for the Jews. No Muslim claims that Muhammed is Allah, yet Christians believe that Christ is the Son of God. Muslims believe that the bible corrupted the teachings of God, and is therefore unreliable, whereas the Christians acknowledge their debt to the Jews insisting the Jesus fufills the prophecies in the Old Testament.

Why should one believe Muhammed over Moses and all the other prophets?




Rather, there's 3 very different interpretations and traditions with a few similar points, who have come to believe in 1 single deity and accept a certain amount of shared history/historical relationship with it, common to all 3 (again, mostly retroactively co-opted, but viewed as "true").

[Sikander]

My Rod is bigger than your Rod.

My Rod:

[Sikander]

My Rod is bigger than your Rod.

Your Rod:

[Ben Kenobi]

If people are predestined by God to be saved or damned (much fewer are saved, and not all Christians are) then you MUST consign people to Hell. Every major Christian sect really consigns people to the Satanic underworld.

Show me where the Calvinists say believers can be condemned to hell.

Show me where a Calvinist rejects someone from entering the Church on the grounds that they are not part of the elect?

Quite simply, we do not know for sure who is part and who is not, until they decide to join. Once someone is inside, then we believe that they are in the book of life.

[Imran Siddiqui]

Show me where the Calvinists say believers can be condemned to hell.

From all the classes I've taken on the Reformation, the original Calvinists did not believe that all Christians will be among the elect. Only a few of them will. That is one of the reasons to try to be successful in your secualar work (as opposed to say Catholic monestacism where work doesn't matter), to attempt to gain an insight into whether or not you were one of the elect, as predetermined by God. Just because you join the church doesn't make you elect.

One of the central tenants of original Calvinism is that you can NEVER know if you are one of the elect. Only God knows.

[Kramerman]

i dont believe in god... but if i did his c0ck would be this big *gestures with hands*

[Urban Ranger]

IIRC, Calvinists reject the notion of freewill.

[Imran Siddiqui]

IIRC, Calvinists reject the notion of freewill.

Yes, predetermination does so .

[DaShi]

Duh.

[Imran Siddiqui]

Oh, and Ben:

http://en2.wikipedia.org/wiki/Calvinism

I'd like to point to the part that says 'Liberal Reforms'.

Another revision of Calvinism is called Amyrauldianism, "hypothetical universalism", or "four-point Calvinism", which asserts that Christ's death atones for the sins of all men, but only those who repent and believe are elect and receive forgiveness. This doctrine was most thoroughly systematized by the French Reformed theologian at the University of Saumur, Moses Amyraut, for whom it is named. It was popularized in England by the Reformed pastor Richard Baxter, and gained strong adherence in the Presbyterian church in American colonies, during the 17th and 18th centuries. In the United States, Amyrauldianism is the most common form of Calvinism current among evangelical churches. Baxter himself differentiated his proposals from those of Amyrauldianism, on several rather subtle points. Baxter's influential form of hypothetical universalism is often called neonomianism, and is generally considered a milder proposal of reform than Amyraut's version.

Basically the idea that all believers are among the elect is a Liberal Reform of Calvinism. The original idea is that only the elect are saved and not all believers are part of the elect.

[MichaeltheGreat]

Originally posted by The diplomat


NO! They are not the same deity at all. Allah was originally the Moon God of various Arab tribes back when they were polytheist. It has nothing to do with Yawheh who revealed himself to the Israelites centuries prior.

Furthermore, they teach radically different things. The God of the Bible teaches salvation through grace. Allah teaches salvation through works. If they are the same deity then why do they teach radically different ways to salvation?

Also, if they are the same deity, then why did He tell the Jews that Jesus was his only Son and then tell the Arabs that Jesus wasn't His Son?

Yes, Allah means "god" in Arabic but it is not referring to the same deity as the God of the Bible.

Then again, there are conflicts within Christian denominations as to the significance of works and grace in salvation, and Jews don't recognize Jesus as the messiah, either - so do Jews and different Christian denominations worship different gods? Or is it just "my God is the true God, and you are a heretic?"