What exactly is a "gay-friedly"

[MrFun]

And besides the fact that sexual orientation is not a choice.

Your race is not a choice, so does this mean that you automatically assume your own race is superior??

Ben's fallacy is way out there in the seventh dimension.

[MrFun]

Oh, and here is some good news in light of the stupid Marriage Protection Week proclamation . . . . .


PRESS RELEASE

For immediate release:
October 16, 2003

Contact: Peggy Hayes
617-835-3421


DignityUSA Calls on Catholics to Support Same-Sex Couples

During President Bush's "Marriage Protection Week"



Washington, DC -- October 16, 2003 — As President Bush and conservative leaders mark the so-called "Marriage Protection Week," DignityUSA and its chapters and members across the country call upon supportive Catholics everywhere to stand with same-sex couples who are seeking marriage rights and challenge the arguments of the opponents of same-sex marriage.

"From the White House to the Vatican to the news conferences of our own bishops, officials keep repeating the mantra that somehow, by acting fairly and providing rights to same-sex couples, heterosexual marriage is diminished," said Sam Sinnett, president of DignityUSA. "When pressed on this point, no one has any evidence or reasonable arguments. In fact, we believe greater fairness strengthens all of society by respecting and honoring all kinds of families. We continue to advocate for the right to marry for
same sex couples – both civil marriage in society and sacramental marriage in our Church. This is a matter of fairness in our democratic country and a matter of justice and recognition for the thousands of same-sex families that worship in Catholic churches."

Dignity chapters across the country are working in coalition with other groups to speak the truth of same-sex partnerships, show the world how same-sex couples are raising children and contributing to their communities. Recent efforts include events hosted by
Dignity/Chicago and Dignity/Boston and others are planned.

DignityUSA leaders call on all Catholics to become part of the public and private dialogue on this policy matter – in the civil arena and the church – and to consider the historical social justice stance of the Roman Catholic Church with regard to the expansion of civil rights.

"Speak out to your elected officials, write a letter to your bishop, and start a conversation in the church hall after Mass" urged Sinnett. "Your stories, as supportive straight Catholics, joined with the voices of the membership of DignityUSA, will be heard!"

Recently, the board of directors of DignityUSA and the
membership assembled for the biennial convention adopted a resolution on same-sex marriage, saying:

"As Americans, we remind our fellow citizens of a foundationaL principle of our form of government: all
are created equal. Consistent with the pursuit of liberty and justice for all, same-sex couples should have full and equal access to the rights and responsibilities bestowed by civil marriage.

"As Catholics, we remind our Church of a foundational conviction of our faith: God is love and all who abide in love abide in God and God abides in them. The love that brings and binds two people of the same, or opposite sex, together has a divine source. It is therefore sacramental in nature and should
be celebrated as such by our Church."

DignityUSA is the only national Catholic organization that
offers a multifaceted program of support for same-sex couples and
blesses their commitments in chapters across the country. DignityUSA
maintains a national couples registry to recognize and record these
unions.

DignityUSA is the foremost organization of gay, lesbian,
bisexual and transgendered Catholics, their families, friends and
supporters. Founded in 1969, it is an independent nonprofit
organization with members and Chapters across the country.

For more information, please visit www.dignityusa.org



=========================================
To participate in a discussion of issues that are of particular interest to Catholic glbt persons you are invited to join the Dignity Discussion list at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dignity-l/
=======================================
Founded in 1969, DignityUSA is the oldest national organization working for respect and justice for all gay, lesbian, bisexual, and transgender persons in the Catholic Church & society through education, advocacy and support.

As part of a broader reform movement within the Roman Catholic tradition, DignityUSA envisions and works for a time when gay, lesbian, bisexual and transgender Catholics are affirmed and experience dignity through the integration of their spirituality with their sexuality, and as beloved persons of God participate fully in all aspects of life within the Church and society. A 501 (c) (3) nonprofit organization, DignityUSA has members and Chapters throughout the United States.

DignityUSA
1500 Massachusetts Ave NW Suite 11
Washington DC 20005-1894
www.dignityusa.org 1-800-877-8797

[MrFun]

I guess everyone is out partying tonight . . . .

[Drake Tungsten]

Would you say that in every way you are, and everything you do, you are superior to everyone else?

I would.

[Ben Kenobi]

Not quite the response that I expected.

For me, something that is right, is the morally superior action to the alternatives. Hence, saying that neither one is superior says several things.

1. Either this is not a moral issue, like eating ice cream. Sexual orientation is just another flavour. One can like one flavour, yet no one flavour is superior to the others.

2. Or it is a moral issue, but everyone gets their own, which they cannot and should not change.

Neither one of these I believe is a fallacy, and I wanted Mr. Fun to clarify which one he meant in his response. I believe Mr. Fun subscribes to the second view.

I think Ben meant that you cannot belong to a group of people unless you feel that group you belong to, is superior.

Not necessarily. This would only happen if people always did the right thing, or if all groups have moral issues, neither of which may be true.

Would you say that in every way you are, and everything you do, you are superior to everyone else?

No. There are many things that I do do that I know are not right. It doesn't change the nature of the actions, but only the motivations.

Ben's fallacy is way out there in the seventh dimension.

Nope, just trying to sort out where you stand.

Clearly, you think that people have a path set out from them that they cannot and should not change.

[Ben Kenobi]

"As Catholics, we remind our Church of a foundational conviction of our faith: God is love and all who abide in love abide in God and God abides in them. The love that brings and binds two people of the same, or opposite sex, together has a divine source. It is therefore sacramental in nature and should
be celebrated as such by our Church."

This deserves a response.

1 John 4:7-9

"Dear friends, let us love one another, for love comes from God. Everyone who loves has been born of God and knows God. Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love. This is how God showed his love among us: He sent his one and only Son into the world that we might live through him."

This is the problem with the argument. We have a very poor language in English, but when God calls us to love our neighbour, does this make us a prostitute? The two loves are not the same. Eros and Agape.

"As Americans, we remind our fellow citizens of a foundationaL principle of our form of government: all
are created equal. Consistent with the pursuit of liberty and justice for all, same-sex couples should have full and equal access to the rights and responsibilities bestowed by civil marriage.

No. You have the same right to marry as anyone else. No one is preventing you from marrying a nice woman.

[Sikander]

Originally posted by Agathon


I don't think this is true. These things don't really exist, they are just an illusion. Of course various bunches of people have convergent interests and shared experiences, but it's nothing more than that.

There certainly isn't a "gay viewpoint" only the vewpoints of individual gay people, which may or may not converge on some issues.

Identity politics is an illusion because identity is a personal and not a communal phenomenon.

I agree in general. I also agree with Spiffor in that I think a lot of this identity defined by a group around one aspect of ones self can be overdone very easily to the detriment of both society generally as well as the participants. This tends to isolate people from their other peers and support systems, which can be fatal for vulnerable populations like young people in general, and young gays in particular. It also invites the formation of cults of one sort or another. Certainly most people will not suffer these sorts of extremes, but people who are already struggling with their identities to begin with are particularly vulnerable to at best unbalancing their lives by focusing their emotional energy on only one part of themselves. Think dittoheads.

Sure most people like to be around other people who share similar interests, or people who "get" them in a particular sense. But imagine how limited I would be if I only really hung out with people who played wargames, or people who were abused as children, or people who enjoyed the same sports, or only men. These things are all part of me, but thankfully none of them completely define me. By branching out I have benefitted immensely, and hopefully I have also given some benefit to my friends and aquaintances and society at large by being a more rounded person.

[Sikander]

Originally posted by MrFun

A homosexual who constantly berates heterosexuals is just as bad, in my opinion. Or, he has no healthier way to express his resentment of societal homophobia/heterosexism.

Why do you assume that this guy is reacting to wrongs inflicted upon him by others? Perhaps he's just a sexist jerk. Would you immediately assume that a heterosexual who was grossed out by public displays of affection by gays was simply reacting to the bigotry he had experienced from gays? I doubt that seriously.

[MrFun]

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi

2. Or it is a moral issue, but everyone gets their own, which they cannot and should not change.

First off, I go with number 2 -- sexual orientation is an amoral issue, but fundies and other extreme conservatives use propaganda to make it a moral issue.


And you still dodge the main issue -- homosexuals are not arguing that they're denied the right to marry someone of the opposite sex.

Quit playing dumb.

[MrFun]

So much for further discussion . . . .

[Uncle Sparky]

[rant]

[size=1]posted by ben kenobi[/size=1]
We have a very poor language in English, but when God calls us to love our neighbor, does this make us a prostitute?

Remind me again, what did Mary Magdalene do for a living, according to biblical accounts ?

Besides, the judeo-christian god is obviously gay, but possibly closeted. He creates men, then woman almost as an afterthought. He has a son (and he could have chosen boy or girl), but doesn't marry the mother. His son hangs out with only guys and the odd female prostitute. He wants only male priests to be his messengers (if you go catholic).

The Pope says there should be no gay or female priests, because there were none in the bible. Technically, there were no popes in the bible either. Also if you go back a couple of "infallible" popes, lay women were encouraged to lead masses. Current infallible pope says no, they can't.

Anyway, if heaven is so damn nice, who do you think decorated it ? I know I can't match a tie to a shirt & jacket if my life depended on it. So, imho, heaven has to be full of gay people (and gay friendly people) enjoying a great party with their gay god.
[/rant]

[Ben Kenobi]

Remind me again, what did Mary Magdalene do for a living, according to biblical accounts ?

She was a prostitute. Jesus encouraged her to leave her life as a prostitute, as he would men who are homosexual.

Besides, the judeo-christian god is obviously gay, but possibly closeted. He creates men, then woman almost as an afterthought. He has a son (and he could have chosen boy or girl), but doesn't marry the mother. His son hangs out with only guys and the odd female prostitute. He wants only male priests to be his messengers (if you go catholic).

Yet he affirms marriage between a man and a woman. He creates a woman for Adam because it is not good for men to be alone. Jesus, as a man could speak and teach in the synagogues. Of all his 12 apostles, it was the women who stayed by Christ on the cross. It was the women who first saw the risen Christ and the empty tomb.

The Pope says there should be no gay or female priests, because there were none in the bible. Technically, there were no popes in the bible either. Also if you go back a couple of "infallible" popes, lay women were encouraged to lead masses. Current infallible pope says no, they can't.

Priests ought to be morally upright, and following the teachings of Christ. Christ explicitly affirms either marriage or total abstinence, hence this ought to be the standard held by the priest.

Female priests are another issue entirely, and perhaps ought to be directed at a different thread. It has nothing to do with whether one ought to marry homosexuals.

Mr. Fun:

Is it possible for people to change their sexual preferences? If this is the case, than your analogy of preference = skin colour falls apart. Even if it can be shown that people start off favouring one or the other, (which this study seems to refute, in the case of male homosexuals), than it does not necessarily mean that this stays fixed throughout one's life.

I ask you, would you prefer the first question or the second, is it just like choosing a flavour, or are you born with it?

[MrFun]

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi

Mr. Fun:

Is it possible for people to change their sexual preferences? If this is the case, than your analogy of preference = skin colour falls apart. Even if it can be shown that people start off favouring one or the other, (which this study seems to refute, in the case of male homosexuals), than it does not necessarily mean that this stays fixed throughout one's life.

I ask you, would you prefer the first question or the second, is it just like choosing a flavour, or are you born with it?

No, it's not possible to change your sexual orientation, in spite of the over-hyped propaganda from those so called "conversion programs."

I cannot say for certain how sexual orientation develops -- all I know is that I did not choose to be gay. And the majority of gays that I talk with, also say that they themselves did not choose to be gay.

[Wittlich]

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi
She was a prostitute. Jesus encouraged her to leave her life as a prostitute, as he would men who are homosexual.

How I love how you know the exact thoughts of Jesus. Ben, a word of advise: Speak for yourself and not for others.

[MrFun]

I see -- Ben believes that sincere, romantic love between two people of the same gender is equated with krass, exploitative prostitution.