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**Imran Siddiqui** · October 10, 2003, 00:18

Damn right! I think I deserve one.

(and I'd really like a cookie... chocolate chip please

)

**MrFun** · October 10, 2003, 00:22

Get it yourself -- or is the cookie on a shelf too high for you to reach?

**Imran Siddiqui** · October 10, 2003, 00:29

I'm too lazy to get it

**Ben Kenobi** · October 10, 2003, 01:18

This is bad Catholic doctrine. Contraceptive devices are licit if the intent in using them is not to prevent conception, but rather some acceptable end. Thus, "the pill" may be taken by a woman to regulate her period, I am sure in the instance describe above a condom would be ok.

Shi:

There are many effects of the pill, one being that it can clear skin, as well as regulation of a menstrual cycle. If one were celebate, yet stayed on the pill for these reasons that would be licit.

Condoms have no intrinsic benefit apart from sexual intercourse, hence they always act as a contraceptive. Just sticking one on won't make you feel better.

Condoms provide a false sense of security, as Dr. Strangelove has stated. They may not when working properly, allow AIDS to pass through, but how often do condoms fail? In the meantime, the people are more likely to have sex if they feel they are safe from the consequences of AIDS.

This is why many Catholics, and Africans blame condoms for aiding the spread of AIDS. The only 100% effective way of curtailing the spread is through abstinence.

**Asher** · October 10, 2003, 01:24

I'm confused by DrStrangelove's numbers, because the studies I've seen are different:

I. De Vincenzi, "A Longitudinal Study of Human Immunodeficiency Virus Transmission by Heterosexual Partners," The New England Journal of Medicine, 331, no. 6 (Aug. 11, 1994), p. 341-6.
:

**alva** · October 10, 2003, 01:36

The only 100% effective way of curtailing the spread is through abstinence.

There's quite a few people in both Germany and France no less that will very much disagree with you. There's is this thing called transfusions for one.
-
Asher's numbers look more realistic too me.

**Ben Kenobi** · October 10, 2003, 02:07

Okay, barring blood transfusions, the only 100% effective way to prevent HIV transmission is through abstinence.

Happy?

**Asher** · October 10, 2003, 02:09

Considering that 99.99% of people will not contract HIV while having sex with their partner with a condom, I don't see absintence as a viable option.

There's more to life than living to be impotent and senile at 60, and sex is definitely worth the minute chance.

**alva** · October 10, 2003, 02:13

And off course there's not only HIV, some other virii can do some damage too.

**Shi Huangdi** · October 10, 2003, 02:15

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi

Shi:

There are many effects of the pill, one being that it can clear skin, as well as regulation of a menstrual cycle. If one were celebate, yet stayed on the pill for these reasons that would be licit.

Condoms have no intrinsic benefit apart from sexual intercourse, hence they always act as a contraceptive. Just sticking one on won't make you feel better.

Condoms provide a false sense of security, as Dr. Strangelove has stated. They may not when working properly, allow AIDS to pass through, but how often do condoms fail? In the meantime, the people are more likely to have sex if they feel they are safe from the consequences of AIDS.

This is why many Catholics, and Africans blame condoms for aiding the spread of AIDS. The only 100% effective way of curtailing the spread is through abstinence.

Wow, looks as though RCIA and Denise have been getting through to you. Perhaps soon you will be able to take my place as Apolyton's insane papist.

Now I am not infallible, so I could well be erring here, but I don't think I am.

The Birth Control Pill can be licitly used under the teaching of the Church under some circumstances. The difference in whether it is ok or not depends on the intent? If the intent of using the Pill is to remedy a medical condition(morally licit under church teaching), it's not sinful under Church teaching. If the intent of using the pill is to contracept, then it is sinful under Church teaching.

Similarly, preventing the spreading of a deadly disease is not illict under Church teaching; and so in the case of a married couple in which one partner already has AIDS, I don't think it would be considered sinful under Church teaching to use a barrier if the intent of that barrier was to stop the disease.

You are correct of course that abstinence is the only 100% effective way of avoiding HIV(other then by blood transfusions), and were Africa to start following the Church's teaching this problem would be solved.

**Asher** · October 10, 2003, 02:15

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi
Okay, barring blood transfusions, the only 100% effective way to prevent HIV transmission is through abstinence.

Happy?

The only 100% effective way to prevent being run over by a car is to never leave the house.

Maybe you should also promote abstinence of not leaving the house.

**alva** · October 10, 2003, 02:18

and were Africa to start following the Church's teaching this problem would be solved.

I'd say they would be better of with some rational education.

**laurentius** · October 10, 2003, 02:52

The pope is getting more senile everyday, it would be best if he would just shut up and die

- Shut up and die!!!

**Gangerolf** · October 10, 2003, 03:04

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
Article:

In an interview, one of the Vatican's most senior cardinals Alfonso Lopez Trujillo suggested HIV could even pass through condoms.

Title:

Pope says condoms are no good against HIV

yeah well..

but do you think one of the Vatican's most senior cardinals would say something like this if he didn't have the backing of the big boss himself? Besides, he might as well become the next pope

**Ben Kenobi** · October 10, 2003, 03:08

I don't think it would be considered sinful under Church teaching to use a barrier if the intent of that barrier was to stop the disease.

Okay, let's take this one step further. Using your logic, wearing a condom to have sex if the person has a known STD is okay.

Wearing a condom to have sex if the person does not have an STD is not.

Now, I doubt the church wants to encourage Catholics to have sex with those who have STDs.

I'm pretty sure the Pope said something about this... I'll go sniffing around to see if I can't find the cyclical.

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Pope says condoms are no good against HIV

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