phelps is at it again.

[SKILORD]

Yes, but repentance is prerequisite to grace. One who is unrepentant of his sins would not ask forgiveness of those sins and ergo would lack forgiveness of those sins.

God's grace is indeed a free gift but not one imposed upon us. There is no point in being a Christian if grace requires no repentance, if we need not even ask forgiveness, need not even attempt to be a better likeness of Christ then why have I given up the parties and so forth which I once so actively pursued?

I depend on God to grant me forgiveness, not to impose forgiveness upon me.

[Berzerker]

David Limbaugh has a book out titled 'Persecution' I reccomend it (I haven't actually gotten abround to reading it

Yeah, I'll read a book you recommend but haven't read.

No offense to you, but Limbaugh and O'Reilly (who was promoting the book) are hypocritical goofballs with a detachment from reality. The Bible was used to "justify" slavery and genocide in this country. But that was a while back, so what about now? Let me see, how many people have been put in cages by "Christians" for not getting permission to exercise their freedom? While we hear Christians are being persecuted, Christians are putting Rastafarians and some Indians in jail for practicing their religions. Hell, we can't even buy beer in Kansas on Sundays because of these Christians, much less use pot. Porn is illegal in some Bible Belt states (and Utah); oh yeah, tell the Mormons about how Christians are being "persecuted". They had to leave and settle way out west to get away from them tolerant Christians. Millions have been put in cages by "Christians" who complain about being "persecuted".

[SKILORD]

Furthermore I do not ever once in my post attack homosexuality as a practice, I condemn fornication (which is so clearly against the commandment 'Thou shalt not commit adultery' that I need not label it as a sin). Do not label me a homophobe, do not label me a Pharisee, I am a Christian and only speak that we (You through any accidental wisdom and me through the myriad mistakes I depend on you to correct) might better know God.

[SKILORD]

The Bible was used to "justify" slavery and genocide in this country. But that was a while back, so what about now?

It was also used to justify Crusades, despite it's law that 'Thou shalt not Kill'. That it can be bent to purpouses other than it's intent is unsurprising. I wonder if you could pervert 'Mein Kampth (Damn language, I can't spell)' until you could justify Jewish culture.

I don't complain about persecution, it's not bad nough for me to complain about, but I do see an emerging double standard between 'Christianity' who is guilty for it's dominance, and 'Everyone Else'. These are the seeds of persecution.

[GePap]

The Pope who blessed the cursades was probalby a much greater Bible scholar than anyone here. The statement: "the Bible does not back that up" is as useless as the statement "Islam is inhrently evil cause the Q'uran is writen like so". Human beings do not simply intake the information whole like some recorder. Interpretation always lies between our mind and the word: it is interpretation, built upon countless prejudices, pre-conconceptions, personal choices, our senses, and our experiences that define how we read a word. If interpretation never varied, there would not be secterian devides to any writen religions.

So what is says in the bible is secondary to the interpretation of the day, or of the individual, and the same is tru for all holy texts.

[Berzerker]

Furthermore I do not ever once in my post attack homosexuality as a practice, I condemn fornication (which is so clearly against the commandment 'Thou shalt not commit adultery' that I need not label it as a sin).

Adultery and fornication are different.

But you ignored my point, "Christians" use their religion in this country to persecute people and then they complain about being "persecuted". Now, how are they persecuted? Some people don't want them using public schools to indoctrinate other people's children into their religion (the pledge of allegiance affirming a belief in God). C'mon! If Satanists were using public schools to get children to affirm a belief in Satan as "overlord" of this country, Christians would be screaming bloody murder. Yes, the ACLU goes over the line sometimes trying to separate church and state, but nothing they've done can compare with what Christians have done and what they continue to do.

[SKILORD]

The Pope who blessed the cursades was probalby a much greater Bible scholar than anyone here.

Then I challenge him to justify it to me, I challenge his spiritual descendants to make me understand why we were to no longer love our neighbors as ourselves and were rather to slaughter non-Christians. The Bible does not say 'Love thy Christian neighbors' it says 'love thy neighbors'.

-

Variances of interpretation are the seeds of debate and reconcilliation of interpretation. There is nothing wrong with your statement that the written word is secondary to interpretation therof (There may be but I am unprepared to debate it) but such interpretation, in order to be valid, must encompass the entire document; not based upon such scripture as;

"Thou shalt ... Kill."

It must also be open minded and accept the interpretations of others, perhaps even incorporating such interpretations into their own beliefs. As this grows the mass interpretation becomes it's own belief and is documented. Such documentation is then open for interpretation and we progress another degree from the source documents. This leads to Reformation, when a return to source documents is invoked.

[SKILORD]

I don't complain about persecution, it's not bad nough for me to complain about, but I do see an emerging double standard between 'Christianity' who is guilty for it's dominance, and 'Everyone Else'. These are the seeds of persecution.

Yes, the ACLU goes over the line sometimes trying to separate church and state, but nothing they've done can compare with what Christians have done and what they continue to do.

I can't see where I missed your point.

[Berzerker]

Then I'll repeat it:

"Christians" use their religion in this country to persecute people and then they complain about being "persecuted".

I've provided a very small amount of evidence to support my argument and didn't even think of mentioning homosexuals who were, until recently, still put in cages in some particularly "Christian" states.

[GePap]

Originally posted by SKILORD


Then I challenge him to justify it to me, I challenge his spiritual descendants to make me understand why we were to no longer love our neighbors as ourselves and were rather to slaughter non-Christians. The Bible does not say 'Love thy Christian neighbors' it says 'love thy neighbors'.

He is dead. And the guy lived in Rome, a bunch of Arabs and Jews in Jerusalem were not his neighbors.

Variances of interpretation are the seeds of debate and reconcilliation of interpretation. There is nothing wrong with your statement that the written word is secondary to interpretation therof (There may be but I am unprepared to debate it) but such interpretation, in order to be valid, must encompass the entire document; not based upon such scripture as;

"Thou shalt ... Kill."

It must also be open minded and accept the interpretations of others, perhaps even incorporating such interpretations into their own beliefs. As this grows the mass interpretation becomes it's own belief and is documented. Such documentation is then open for interpretation and we progress another degree from the source documents. This leads to Reformation, when a return to source documents is invoked.

That statement you just made is a result of the modern prejudices of our day. For a guy in 1098 the notion of telorance and so forth would be non-sense. After all, whatever the pope's arguement, it sure convinced a lot of people to undertake their mission from God.

[SKILORD]

Originally posted by Berzerker


Adultery and fornication are different.

Some would argue that fornication is adultery against your future wife.

Shall I take a member of the body of Christ and unite him with a prostitute?

[SKILORD]

He is dead. And the guy lived in Rome, a bunch of Arabs and Jews in Jerusalem were not his neighbors.

Yes, he is, isn't he. You then intentionally misconstrue the meaning of neighbors so as to weary me.

That statement you just made is a result of the modern prejudices of our day. For a guy in 1098 the notion of telorance and so forth would be non-sense. After all, whatever the pope's arguement, it sure convinced a lot of people to undertake their mission from God.

God is eternal, unchanging.

For Jesus, for the Apostles, for the Disciples, tolerance was an ideal. Why then has a man 1000 years later falllen from this? Apparently he has and the reasons matter not, but I cannot believe in your non-objective reality.

Adolf Hitler (I wish I had another despot to name offhand) convinced a lot of people to take up arms for the Fatherland, does this make his reasons true?

[Berzerker]

Some would argue that fornication is adultery against your future wife.

Some may argue the sky is falling. Maybe that's why the OT punishment for fornication was marriage, not stoning as was the case for adultery (clearly the OT made a distinction). But you have no moral commitment to a future wife, just the commitment you make when you marry her. What if you marry the woman with whom you fornicate? What if you never marry? What if you're a homosexual? What if you die before you can marry?

Shall I take a member of the body of Christ and unite him with a prostitute?

Why not? If God can call upon a prostitute to save Israel, then you can call upon a prostitute to have some fun. Btw, there's another group of people being persecuted by "Christians" - prostitutes and their customers.

[GePap]

Originally posted by SKILORD
Yes, he is, isn't he. You then intentionally misconstrue the meaning of neighbors so as to weary me.

Miscontrue? This whole new little side arguement is about intepretation..if you define the Infadel as men with souls, maybe you have to take care not to kill them. NOw where in the bible are infadelas defines as equals? God had the Israelites slaughter his enemies before..for all Christ said, that does not erase thew words of the Father.

God is eternal, unchanging.

Then let him come down and say what he means every so often.

For Jesus, for the Apostles, for the Disciples, tolerance was an ideal. Why then has a man 1000 years later falllen from this? Apparently he has and the reasons matter not, but I cannot believe in your non-objective reality.

Believe what you will. That still does not undo the relaity of the intepretation problem. Jesus was dead before Christianity begun, and Paul wrote about how to be a good slave...the Church and modern Christianity is as much a product of thousands of scholars scribb;ling from 60 ad and beyond than just Jesus.

Adolf Hitler (I wish I had another despot to name offhand) convinced a lot of people to take up arms for the Fatherland, does this make his reasons true?

Reasons can't be true.

[Ben Kenobi]

Skilord:

I depend on God to grant me forgiveness, not to impose forgiveness upon me.

Agreed. God offers his grace and it is up to us whether we wish to accept the offer.