Ratin' Trudeau...

[Asher]

Originally posted by cinch
Many Easterners come out West or to Ontario or B.C. for work. As I said, just not ALL of them.

I know many do, evidently not enough.

After all, Calgary is the fastest growing city in Canada year after year.

Oh, yes, I know, you've lectured me on this before, but I maintain that no matter how ironclad Klein's schemes are, he can't insure perpetual Albertan dominance.

No kidding, but with all of the legacy funds he's installed for the province we've got economic shields from boom/busts, as well as the lowest debt load by far out of any province in Canada.

Generalizatios, Ho!
1. Again, many Maritimers do move to find work.
2. Equalization payments don't just support lazy slobs; even the people who do have work aren't raking in the big bucks, for the simple reason that the anchor industry isn't quite as lucrative as Alberta's.

Why not? Newfoundland makes assloads of money off oil now that Hibernia works, the problem is it's just a ****hole of a province that can't figure out how to manage its province.

Same reason B.C. and Quebec suck ass provincially, they're left-wing dreamer provinces who need a lesson in how to run your government. There's no reason whatsoever those two provinces should suck as much as they do economically.

Yes.

That'll be the day.

[Tingkai]

The Idiot - Stan Rogers, 1981

I often take these night shift walks
when the foreman's not around.
I turn my back on the cooling stacks
and make for open ground.
Far out beyond the tank farm fence
where the gas flare makes no sound,
I forget the stink and I always think
back to that Eastern town.

I remember back six years ago,
this Western life I chose.
And every day, the news would say
some factory's going to close.
Well, I could have stayed to take the Dole,
but I'm not one of those.
I take nothing free,
and that makes me an idiot, I suppose.

So I bid farewell to the Eastern town
I never more will see;
But work I must so I eat this dust
and breathe refinery.
Oh I miss the green and the woods and streams
and I don't like cowboy clothes;
But I like being free
and that makes me an idiot I suppose.

So come all you fine young fellows
who've been beaten to the ground.
This western life's no paradise,
but it's better than lying down.
Oh, the streets aren't clean, and there's nothing green, and the hills are dirty brown,
But the government Dole will rot your soul
back there in your home town.

So bid farewell to the Eastern town
you never more will see.
There's self-respect and a steady cheque in this refinery.
You will miss the green and the woods and streams
and the dust will fill your nose.
But you'll be free, and just like me, an idiot, I suppose.

[Asher]

I don't get what he's talking about in that song, because last time I checked Calgary was rated as the cleanest major city in the world.

[cinch]

After all, Calgary is the fastest growing city in Canada year after year.

Well, there you go. Also, you can understand how Maritimers might be getting conflicted messages over the years, what with the man who once said "go home, Eastern bums and criminals!" being PREMIER nowadays...

Klein Talkin'

No kidding, but with all of the legacy funds he's installed for the province we've got economic shields from boom/busts, as well as the lowest debt load by far out of any province in Canada.

Well, maybe... or maybe the sustainability fund's just another way for Ralphie to hand out people-pacifiers & rebates, while fudging the paperwork on other fronts...

Neil Waugh's column on the subject (and Waugh's a conservative!)

"Next up for the mercurial Mason was the natural gas rebate program that Energy Minister Murray Smith was trying to claim was only possible because of the newly established sustainability fund.

"I wonder how long it took them to come up with that one," Mason winked.

"When the price of gas goes up their revenues go through the roof," he continued. "It's built in."

Mason called the rebate "a step in the right direction for the wrong reasons." "

*******

[Asher]

Originally posted by cinch
Well, there you go. Also, you can understand how Maritimers might be getting conflicted messages over the years, what with the man who once said "go home, Eastern bums and criminals!" being PREMIER nowadays...

Klein Talkin'

Oh, give me a break. Whenever somebody brings up that quote it's clear they've run out of ammo.

It was taken out of context, and twisted by the media.

He was talking about the rise of petty crimes, mostly in the downtown core (thieves, muggings, etc) that were, statistically, homeless people who came from the east (95% of bank robberies, etc.). So he made it clear he wanted the Eastern "bums and creeps" (Klein was always so blunt! ) to stay home. He wasn't saying all Easterns are bums and creeps, as he's clarified himself hundreds of times and anyone with basic reasoning ability could discern...

He even said he'd welcome homeless people in Calgary for a few weeks to see what they can find for work, at government expense, but if they can't find any work and start mugging senior citizens, robbing stores, etc, to "get the hell out of town".

[cinch]

Originally posted by Asher

Oh, give me a break. Whenever somebody brings up that quote it's clear they've run out of ammo.

I didn't know there was a rule about this similar to that "whoever brings up Nazis first loses" thingamajigger.

Anyway, I still think it set things back a little in the whole "Easterners coming West to find work" arena. I mean, it's almost circular logic: No work out easst---> go west---> can't find work out west? ---> go back east---> can't find work out east? ---> go west...

But it's clear this discussion is running out of steam, so, uh...

Flames suck!

[Ben Kenobi]

Everyone leaches off those two provinces, and it ain't helping the other ones get anywhere.

Actually, I believe BC refused to take the transfer payments, because Mr. Campbell feels that a government can become dependent upon them. I know that our province sucks right now, but once we fix a decade of NDP mismanagement, then we might have things back on track.

Of course, it doesn't help getting forest fires, the lack of a lumber agreement with the US. It's a darn shame that we don't link those two commodities, of oil and lumber. Then we might get some action.

Give us time. We'll get back on the high end again.

[Tingkai]

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi
Actually, I believe BC refused to take the transfer payments, because Mr. Campbell feels that a government can become dependent upon them. I know that our province sucks right now, but once we fix a decade of NDP mismanagement, then we might have things back on track.

Really? I thought BC isn't taking any transfer payments because it has gone above the threshhold and no longer qualifies for the payments.

As for decades of NDP mismangement, try decades of Liberal, NDP and Socred mismangement. BC voters have never been particularly adept at electing smart politicians (and they only have themselves to blame). BC voters need to pay attention to what their neighbours in Alberta, Saskatchewan, and Manitoba have done.

[Tingkai]

Originally posted by Asher

Give me a break...Alberta and Ontario are the only two "have" provinces in Canada, and it's been that way for decades. Everyone leaches off those two provinces, and it ain't helping the other ones get anywhere.

Transfer payments are bull**** and I'd not shed a tear if they vanished.

Why should well-off regions continue to waste money in useless regions like Newfoundland? I'd be happy to help fund those people to relocate, I just hate seeing money go down that black hole because some *******s don't wanna move to where the jobs are.

I'm not going to try to explain the fiscal mechanics of the transfer payments, but as for "wasting money"...

Transfer payments allow poorer provinces to provide the same level of education and healthcare services as richer provinces. From an economic point of view, these are vital services for ensuring the people are able to compete in the workforce.

So if you cancel the transfer payments, then people in poorer provinces will be even more unlikely to get a job.

Besides, if you cancel the transfer payments, then the unemployed in poorer provinces will simply move to the richer provinces like Alberta where they will become unemployed "Eastern bums".

[Ben Kenobi]

I thought BC isn't taking any transfer payments because it has gone above the threshhold and no longer qualifies for the payments.

He makes the dependency argument, so I suppose it has some merit.

The problem is that we are trying to do the Klein revolution without massive oil revenues, a dubious prospect, but a necessary one given the lack of business investement compared with Alberta.

[notyoueither]

BC has massive natural wealth, timber, minerals, hydro. oil and gas if you wanted to develop it. BC used to be a have province. No reason it could not be again. It is up to the people there to decide what they want.

Transfer payments from taxation is a fine idea. Pillaging an industry particular to one province or another for the sake of transfers to others is not such a fine idea.

[Tingkai]

Originally posted by notyoueither
Transfer payments from taxation is a fine idea. Pillaging an industry particular to one province or another for the sake of transfers to others is not such a fine idea.

And BC has been particulary good at pillaging trees. The industry is supposd to pay fees for every tree it cuts, and to limit cuts to a sustainable level, but no one knows exactly how many trees are being cut. The Socreds turned a blind eye to the problem, so did the NDP and the "Liberals" are following the same blind path.

Add to that the practice of chopping trees into cheap 2x4s while denying the secondary industries adequate sources of high quality wood.

BC is a wasted wonderland (pun intended).

[Ben Kenobi]

And BC has been particulary good at pillaging trees. The industry is supposd to pay fees for every tree it cuts, and to limit cuts to a sustainable level, but no one knows exactly how many trees are being cut. The Socreds turned a blind eye to the problem, so did the NDP and the "Liberals" are following the same blind path.

Hardly. Treeplanters are maybe 6 months behind the loggers. The problem is not the available resources, but the horrible deals for lumber. We can hardly ship enough wood, and we have to pay a 30% duty for all wood shipped to the US.

Now, how prosperous would Alberta be if they had a 30% duty on all oil and gas exports to the US?

Add to that the practice of chopping trees into cheap 2x4s while denying the secondary industries adequate sources of high quality wood.

BC is a wasted wonderland (pun intended).

Yes, that's been a common complaint that we do not produce enough 'value-added' projects. We're working on it. Since we are so good at shipping 2x4s it is going to take time to change.

Anyhow, we are just starting to tap our oil and gas reserves, particularly off the coast of BC. Just a matter of whether the treehuggers will let us use these resources.

[The Mad Monk]

Originally posted by Asher

Give me a break...Alberta and Ontario are the only two "have" provinces in Canada, and it's been that way for decades. Everyone leaches off those two provinces, and it ain't helping the other ones get anywhere.

Transfer payments are bull**** and I'd not shed a tear if they vanished.

Why should well-off regions continue to waste money in useless regions like Newfoundland? I'd be happy to help fund those people to relocate, I just hate seeing money go down that black hole because some *******s don't wanna move to where the jobs are.

Why don't we (Americans) ever have conversations like this about, say, West Virginia or Arkansas?

[Agathon]

Originally posted by Asher
If by kept the country from splitting apart you mean fueling western alienation, then sure.

You should have lived here long enough to realise the two fundamental truths of Canadian politics:

1) Unless they do something really stupid, the Liberals win.

2) For the most part, the Western Provinces simply don't matter in Canadian politics. Quebec and Ontario are in charge and it's staying that way. Ralph Klein threatens to separate, but they are empty threats, since it isn't going to happen.