Are you still in favor of killing this child?

[yavoon]

Originally posted by Jack the Bodiless
Ben:

Furthermore, you seem to be "in denial" about the consequences of the policy you seek to impose on women, which will increase the suicide rate. You can't make suicidally depressed women happier by denying them what they desperately want, or by turning them into criminals!

so suicidal depression is a justification for abortion? should ppl have to prove they are suicidal before being able to get one? is abortion wrong otherwise? I don't get it. suicidal depression is bad, but I don't see how it gives u leash to go around doing bad things to other ppl(unborn children anyone?).

[Q Classic]

why don't u defer to the unborn child?

are you referring to me? i sure don't know who u is.

i can't defer to the child, because i can't interface with it at all, so to use that argument is disingenuous, to say the least.

what it all boils down to is that abortion is wrong, and we should try to do everything to stop it, but since i am male and thus will never be pregnant, i can't in good conscience support legislation to ban it outright.

[Jack the Bodiless]

Originally posted by yavoon

so suicidal depression is a justification for abortion? should ppl have to prove they are suicidal before being able to get one? is abortion wrong otherwise? I don't get it. suicidal depression is bad, but I don't see how it gives u leash to go around doing bad things to other ppl(unborn children anyone?).

Where on this thread did I say anything about "justification" of abortion?

All I'm saying is that women in situations where they want abortions are obviously more likely to be feeling suicidal too. And this is perfectly adequate as an explanation for the increased suicide rate among women who seek abortions.

This is all very, very obvious. And it's also very, very obvious that this is what I'm pointing out. So why all the deliberate misrepresentation?

Or are fallacious arguments considered OK when used to oppose abortion?

[Urban Ranger]

Originally posted by Darius871
As he said, a zygote has everything necessary to develop into an independent being. If you hurt yourself you're killing cells that are only a part of you and can't survive independently. The distinction should be pretty obvious.

A zygote cannot develop into an indepedent being without attaching to the inside of a womb.

There is no physical difference between any body cells and a zygote. Same 23 pairs of chromosome.

[Darius871]

Originally posted by Urban Ranger
A zygote cannot develop into an indepedent being without attaching to the inside of a womb.

I didn't say it could survive on its own, I said it had all the components necessary to develop into an independent being. Again, if you cut your hand, you're killing cells that are only dependent parts of your body. Dissolving a zygote and killing a few skin cells are NOT morally equivalent for that reason.

Originally posted by Elok

And UR, if you kill off a body cell, do you cease to exist as an independent organism? Is that body cell gone forever, or will another body cell likely grow in to take its place? Most importantly, have you ever had a cell in, say, your arm grow into a baby for some reason? Really, the difference should be obvious, like Darius and Ben said.

[Urban Ranger]

Originally posted by Elok
And UR, if you kill off a body cell, do you cease to exist as an independent organism? Is that body cell gone forever, or will another body cell likely grow in to take its place? Most importantly, have you ever had a cell in, say, your arm grow into a baby for some reason? Really, the difference should be obvious, like Darius and Ben said.

You miss a lot of points here.

1. A zygote is not an independent organism.
2. A zygote is in fact not an organism.
3. A body cell can be "switched on" to turn into an organism.
4. A zygote does not develop into a fetus everywhere.

How many times you people want me to repeat this over and over?

[Urban Ranger]

Originally posted by Darius871
I didn't say it could survive on its own, I said it had all the components necessary to develop into an independent being.

Let me repeat this once again.

A body cell also has all the parts to develop into an independent being.

A zygote is just switched on while a body cell is switched off. But you can switch on a body cell as well.

Originally posted by Darius871
Dissolving a zygote and killing a few skin cells are NOT morally equivalent for that reason.

Is a zygote a human being? No? Good.

[Sava]

It's okay to abort that fetus.

[Japher]

How many times you people want me to repeat this over and over?

Once more.

[Elok]

I am not of the opinion that scientific advances change morality. If cloning was possible, murder would be an irrelevant bit of trivia, worthy of a fine at most in terms of permanent damage. I still don't think murder would be acceptable in those circumstances.
So we can, or could in theory, change a human body cell into a developing fetus. Which would just be a clone of the parent anyway, but leaving that aside, so what? Via advanced brainwashing, we could someday make people forget that they'd been molested as children, but that doesn't make pederasty moral any more than our talents for biological perversion make abortion okay. The fact that there are people mad enough to believe that is to me scarier than pederasty itself...

[yavoon]

Originally posted by Jack the Bodiless

Where on this thread did I say anything about "justification" of abortion?

All I'm saying is that women in situations where they want abortions are obviously more likely to be feeling suicidal too. And this is perfectly adequate as an explanation for the increased suicide rate among women who seek abortions.

This is all very, very obvious. And it's also very, very obvious that this is what I'm pointing out. So why all the deliberate misrepresentation?

Or are fallacious arguments considered OK when used to oppose abortion?

well usually after a corrolation there's a point. u know "this is like this therefore..." obviously urs has none, I apologize.

maybe u shoudl tag your posts w/ *pointless* at the bottom for future reference.

[Alexander's Horse]

Jeez, you make a baby and suddenly its everybody's business.

[Ben Kenobi]

Urban Ranger:

A zygote cannot develop into an indepedent being without attaching to the inside of a womb.

Tough beans. That's not my argument. The zygote is already an independent organism at the point of conception, not implantation.

Just as a newborn cannot survive without sustenance, neither can a zygote survive without implantation.

There is no physical difference between any body cells and a zygote. Same 23 pairs of chromosome.

Yet a skin cell stuck in a petri dish will not grow, or develop, while a zygote will. There must be something different between the two to account for the different responses given exactly the same environment.

[Ben Kenobi]

Jack:

Women who CHOOSE to have kids are MORE secure than the average woman. This is not a decision entered into lightly. Most women choose to become mothers when they are in a stable relationship and have the means to raise the child.

What if a mother refuses to make that 'choice' but prefers to keep the child and to give the child up for adoption? There are many women who get pregnant while not in a stable relationship.

Again, you have no evidence to support your position, so we continue to go round the merry-go-round.

Whereas women who seek abortions are usually desperately unhappy. They include women who have been abandoned, women who are too poor to cope with kids, and rape victims (not a lot of those, but not many commit suicide either: it doesn't take many pregnant and suicidal rape victims to drive up the overall suicide rate).

What about all those ambitious feminists? Again, without solid evidence, you cannot back up your statement.

You're denying that this happens?

Yes.

One of those volunteers was shot dead by a "pro-lifer".

Source?

Neither of which is remotely relevant to the issue here: your bizarre and fallacious argument that abortions cause suicide.

Aah, I see the problem. Do you believe that abortions cause no mental trauma to the woman?

You can't make suicidally depressed women happier by denying them what they desperately want, or by turning them into criminals!

When a woman is poor and pregnant, after the abortion, she will still be poor. When a woman is pregnant and depressed, after the abortion, she will still be depressed. Abortion cannot cure any medical condition.

Now, why offer counselling to a woman if the abortion is all she needs, and 'getting rid of the baby' will solve all her problems? I agree, that we need to help these women. However, I fail to see how abortion will help alleviate the surrounding problems these woman face.

[Agathon]

Originally posted by GePap
That is exactly the point: in the US everything is an issue of rights, rights this, rights that...no one cares to accept the soverignty of the government and its ability to make laws: everything has to be about the validation of some fundamental right...

Yep. Which is why it's such a legal mess.