Are you still in favor of killing this child?

[Ben Kenobi]

However, it did not exclude any external influnces or possible skewing of groups, such as financial status, marital status, and a whole host of other factors.

True. More work needs to be done. However, the only evidence we do have favours the position that abortion increases the rate of suicide for women.

First of all, I need to get a direct reference of Ms Calderone actually saying that because what is missing (as indicated by the ellipsis) can be important. Secondly, was she talking about the situation in the US? There is no reference inside the quotation to indicate one way or another.

I'll see what I can do. The quote comes from my files, and may not be available online in direct reference. Yes, the quote refers to the US.

[Mordoch]

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi
True. More work needs to be done. However, the only evidence we do have favours the position that abortion increases the rate of suicide for women.

Again, by itself its not definative evidence of this at all. You haven't shown if people morely likely to commit suicide tend to choose to have abortions due to their circumstances, or if having an abortion actually affects the likelyhood of these women commiting suicide. You need to seperate cause and effect for the study to have any weight.

[Ben Kenobi]

Mordoch:

People who are victims of rape

Statistically insignificant proportion of the women who abort do so because of rape. Estimate 1% of the total.

http://www.choicesmc.org/pages/top10list.html

or are abandoned by the individual they are in a relationship with when they reveal they are pregnant,

Many woman also choose to seek help and keep their baby in a similar situation.

[Ben Kenobi]

Spiffor:

I missed your earlier post.

They're not doomed from before their birth. To me, this is the main difference: as a communist, I hate the idea of "fate", as if something had to happen to you because of a situation you have no control upon. And being an unwanted kid is being worstly hurt by fate in very most cases.

Why should children die simply because their mother did not want them? Just because you are not wanted does not make you any less of a person.

As for my other point, bank robbers sometimes get killed trying to rob a bank. Should we make bank robbery legal to make sure that they do not get hurt?

That is exactly what is happening here. Mothers die trying to kill their babies. Should we make it legal for them to do so?

I cannot believe this figure can be any close to the underground scene at that time, or they really had huge means to inquire on this.

As the medical director of Planned Parenthood, I would presume that she would be well informed in the safety of abortion at that time.

[Mordoch]

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi
Many woman also choose to seek help and keep their baby in a similar situation.

That's certainly true, but if statisticly they are more likely to seek abortion in these situations and they are more likely to commit suicide in general, they will distort the overall statistics.

[Ben Kenobi]

Mordoch:

if statisticly they are more likely to seek abortion in these situations and they are more likely to commit suicide in general, they will distort the overall statistics.

That's two premisses, both unverified.

1. Are women in this situation more likely to have an abortion?

2. Are these same women more likely to commit suicide?

Do you have the statistical evidence to back either of these statements?

[Mordoch]

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi
That's two premisses, both unverified.

1. Are women in this situation more likely to have an abortion?

2. Are these same women more likely to commit suicide?

Do you have the statistical evidence to back either of these statements?

As I said earlier, for the statistics you cited to be convincing, you need to show with certainty that these premisses are incorrect. I'm not saying I KNOW the statistics are wrong with certainty I'm questioning them and giving reasons why.

[Ben Kenobi]

you need to show with certainty that these premisses are incorrect.

Nope. Look at all the work I did in the thread.

Time for you to show your hand.

[Mordoch]

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi


Nope. Look at all the work I did in the thread.

Time for you to show your hand.

Ok for starters, here's something on suicide rates.

The risk is higher in those who are divorced, widows and widowers. The lowest risk is in those who are married.

http://www.netdoctor.co.uk/000600.html

In other words, those married, generally a much more stable relationship than when just dating, commit suicide less.

The proportion of unintended pregnancies also varied by other selected characteristics, including marital status, race and ethnicity, and income. Low-income, unmarried, black or Hispanic women aged 18-24 years experienced the highest rate of unintended pregnancies. An estimated 78% of never-married women and 63% of formerly married women had an unintended pregnancy compared to only 31% of married women...

In general, unmarried women were also more likely to end an unintended pregnancy by elective abortion. About 60% to 65% of single women versus 37% of married women ended their unintended pregnancies by induced abortion.

http://www.contraceptiononline.org/contrareport/article01.cfm?art=48

The percentage difference between single and married women is quite substancial here. In the situation I set up, the men will often marry the woman before the baby is born if he intends to stay with her, so I'd say this offers a fair amount of evidence on the issue.

[Ben Kenobi]

Good.

However, your first source does not distinguish between married men and married women, and does not put a figure on the differences between those married and those single for the likelihood of suicide.

The big question you need to find is whether married women commit suicide less than single women who have never married.

[Mordoch]

Here's one piece of evidence.

In 1992, the rate for divorced or widowed men in this age group was 2.7 times that for married men, 1.4 times that for never-married men, and over 17 times that for married women. The rate for divorced or widowed women was 1.8 times that for married women and 1.4 times that for never-married women.

http://www.main.org/sos/stats.html

The rates for never married men and women appear to be essentially identical.

[Dis]

yes, I suport first trimester abortion (first 3 months).

I'm against abortion after 3 months unless it is to save the life of the mother under some unusual circumstance.

[:) Smiley]

About all this trimester stuff, at what point does one become aware that they are pregnant? Is there ever a reason for people to have to wait until the later term to abort?

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi
That is exactly what is happening here. Mothers die trying to kill their babies. Should we make it legal for them to do so?

Yes. As I stated in every previous debate, and as I'll state in every future debate, I do not consider abortion as murder, and I refuse to discuss abortion in the light of moral turns.

Read my first replay to Solver in this thread (page 1), and see how predictable you are

[dexters]

Originally posted by GePap
That is exactly the point: in the US everything is an issue of rights, rights this, rights that...no one cares to accept the soverignty of the government and its ability to make laws: everything has to be about the validation of some fundamental right...

There is no right to life, nor right to abortion. What there needs to be is sensible family planning legislation.

I suggest you take a few history courses on the founding of the United States.

I say this having taken such a course and walking out of it understanding the American psyche.

What happened nearly 300 years ago between the American colonists, the British, taxation without representation and, the colonists' "rights", have a lot to do with why Americans are hypersensitive in this area today.

Understanding goes a long way in solving your problem with the US preoccupation with rights.