Growing up in an irreligious household.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by MikeH


Thanks for patronising me (us), that's what I was hoping for.

Have you ever been president of the US? No? Well if you were you'd understand what it was like and understand his decisions, until then you might as well accept you can't understand or comment on what he does.

No ive never been president - but if an actual President or former Pres of the US were here, and was explaining the difficulties of communicating with the public, and shared an example, Id be damned if i called him dishonest or even implied it. I would take the opportunity to LEARN something, and recognize that my opinions and comments, however valuable, would benefit from experience.

So opine, disagreee and comment all you want, but dont tell me that im a liar, or that you know more about raising children then i do.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Japher
Ah, so it's a "you can't understand" thing... I hate those... "It's a woman thing", "It's a black thing"...

They're all great arguments... as long as you don't expect to win that argument

If a black person was telling me what its like to be stopped by a cop at night in a white neighborhood, Id be damned if told him that I knew better than he did how to respond. I would try to learn from him.

[FrostyBoy]

Originally posted by Boris Godunov


Evolution is in no such state, it is both a theory and a fact. The fact of evolution, which has been proven conclusively, is that all living beings evolve. This is scientifically indisputable. It is a "theory" in the scientific sense, which doesn't mean a "guess" or "hypothesis." It is a "theory" in the same sense that gravity is a "theory." A scientific theory is simply a way of explaining observed phenomena, not making a "guess."

Boris: it was indisputable that the Earth was flat.

700 million years from now, we may find that evolution is completely wrong and laughable. I suggest you don't close your mind so much. (Just in case!)

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Japher
They're all great arguments... as long as you don't expect to win that argument

as i said. Sorry. I know its a cliche. maybe it wont win an argument. Its nonetheless true.

I will point out one non-parallel. Blacks have not been whites. Women have not in been men (well lets not go there). All parents HAVE been children. And teenagers. and (for the most part) childless young adults. So we know what it was like to hear our parents say "you wont understand till you have kids" It was a revelation to find out that they were actually right. And you find it out a little more every day. I have an eleven year old. When i had a four year old i didnt know what it was like parenting an eleven year old. I still dont know what its like parenting a teenager, and wouldnt go around telling someone who HAS parented a teenager what the right way to go about it is. I have learned some humility. That by the way, is something plenty of non-parents learn as well. But it DOES take time and life experience to learn it.

[FrostyBoy]

After reading all this, I am getting the understanding that religion actually narrows the mind, and evolution (science) expands the mind

So maybe you should scientifically explain God.

[monolith94]

"And to outlaw sodomy gives every citizen the freedom to walk around without fear of being assraped by one of those homofags, right?"

Where did I ever say I wanted to outlaw sodomy??? Nice, putting words into my mouth.

[Asher]

Originally posted by monolith94
Where did I ever say I wanted to outlaw sodomy??? Nice, putting words into my mouth.

I didn't say you did. Now you're putting words in my mouth.

It's an example of a religious law, since sodomy is quite clearly not permitted by the bible.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Asher

I didn't say you did. Now you're putting words in my mouth.

It's an example of a religious law, since sodomy is quite clearly not permitted by the bible.

I know at least one rabbi who would dispute that.

[Japher]

I know at least one rabbi who would dispute that.

Ya, and half of the Catholic preists would try and dispute it too

[Asher]

Originally posted by lord of the mark
I know at least one rabbi who would dispute that.

That's another glorious thing about religion -- everyone interprets it in creative ways.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Asher

That's another glorious thing about religion -- everyone interprets it in creative ways.

Judaism more so than most - argument is the core of judaism.

To get back on topic - i would like my daughter to know HOW to argue, from valid Jewish legal sources, both sides of a question like this. Cant do that without a Jewish religious education - but seems the opposite of brainwashing to me.

[JohnT]

You know, here's my take:

I don't really care. As long as Sophie is happy, that's all that matters.

I mean it. I shocked my sister once when she asked me what I wanted Sophie to do with her life and I replied that it didn't matter to me if she was a bra burning lesbian who wrote poems about her breasts or a high power businesswoman or a charity worker or a stay at home mother or whatever, just as long as she's happy.

As far as my beliefs are concerned, I see people who succeed and are happy in the Catholic (or "religious" to keep the big picture view of things) belief system just as I see that other people succeed and are happy in most other mental frameworks. I'm not worried about "damaging" or "warping" or "indoctrinating" her as everything I do is "indoctrination." Or "parenting" as we call it from our side of the fence. Brush your teeth! Don't wipe your hands on the dog! Don't hit! Share! Damn, indoctrination is what we do, its who we are. Regardless, it is my observation that people are happy with all sorts of belief systems, some of which might make absolutely no sense to me... but if they're happy, productive, and not a threat to others, that's fine by me.

The issues I'm more worried about are the ones brought up by Alexander's Horse, about the lack of community and availability of friendships and acquaitences - it is a good place to network and to meet people whom have a better than average chance of being "decent."

This is what I'm worried that we're denying Sophie, this and sparing her the embarrassment of the uncomfortable pause that occurs when she has no response to the (very common) question of "So, where do you go to church?" We have absolutely no plans of moving from the SE US, and we have really no plans of moving from Knoxville, so the question is going to come up. Plus, since I want her to know the Bible anyway, who is going to teach it better than the professionals at church?

She is baptized as a Catholic, btw:

[JohnT]

Originally posted by Alexander's Horse
A lot of this discussion misses the point.

Raising your child catholic or any established church community, has a lot of social and economic benefits - better education, a moral reference point or framework, a community of parents like yourself to back you up and socialise with, freebies like access to holiday houses

You don't have to be a fanatic about the relgious part of it. But the ties you make are very handy all through your life, in business, politics, sports, whatever. You'll never walk alone. It certainly helps make me. And if something happened to me I know my family would be looked after.

I do like going to church with my kids, its fun. I feel proud.

My own views on aspects of the faith I keep to myself, like most Dads.

As mentioned above, this is one of my biggest issues with not going to church. Well put, AH!

[JohnT]

Oh, I never found religion "oppressive", a fave word in this thread. After all, when I decided to stop going to church in my teens they didn't exactly send squads of muscled goons after me.

The interesting thing is that many of the responses I'm receiving I could've posted myself at earlier stages in my life. Asher.

[JohnT]

Re: Re: Growing up in an irreligious household.

Originally posted by SlowwHand
1) Why did you ask this at a notoriously Atheist site?
2) Why not give her the chance her parents had?

1. I don't think the site is notoriously atheistic. I asked because I wanted other peoples opinions... and Apolyton wasn't the only place I posted this question.

2. The chance for what?